EXPANDING THE LEICA MARKET: Leica Pricing, Markets Addressed, Economics of New & Used

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On 12/22/2020 at 4:57 AM, Archiver said:

I know an 18 year old who, as a builder's apprentice, has saved enough money to buy himself two motorbikes for about $4000 AUD each. That's a secondhand M240 with three Voigtlander lenses, or one or two secondhand Zeiss lenses. Maybe even a secondhand Leica Summicron 50. It's definitely about priorities. Imagine what he will be able to afford as a registered and licensed builder.

Good God!!! A builder you say!! Clearly being paid far too much, can't have the manual workers getting ahead of themselves eh!

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

And she lived much happier ever after than she would have done with this jerk, I wouldn't wonder.

From where I stand, it was not he who was the jerk.

Before marriage, what's his is his and what's hers is hers.  After marriage, it's joint property, joint assets and joint decision making.  That's the way it works under U.S. law. 

We must also consider the fact that when a person tries to assert retroactive control over another person and attempts to take from them their right to free will , something is at work in the usurper's mind other than real love. 

As previously noted, the guy was single and saving for his motorcycle long before he became involved with her - and then she arrives on the scene and attempts to assert retroactive control over his money and his choices back to the time before she came on the scene?? 

I can't blame him for saying "no, thanks" to her attempt to financially cuckold him.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Ko.Fe.]

How did I missed this one. Wait, it is two thousands one post about Leica been for rich, give it for the proletariat, thing. 

Why? Proletariat could get same results, if not better with "Asian cameras" (this is how OP called them).

Should MB and Jaguar given for proletariat as well? And Rolex? Fifty bucks Rolex for all!

It is time to realize what Leica is the luxury brand most and foremost. And here is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

People are buying MB, Rolex and Leica for pleasure to own. MB, Rolex and Leica might be not technically the best, but they know the secret how make cameras look nice and feel nice. Not an easy thing these days.

As for suffering from high prices of Leica proletariat... I have seen so called low incomers flying to Cuba and elsewhere to just eat, drink and get fat under hot sun. Thousands of dollars spend by those low incomers for something stupid.

Often it is not income problem, but setting up priorities. 

 

[otto.f]

.

Edited December 23, 2020 by otto.f

[jaapv]

55 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

From where I stand, it was not he who was the jerk.

Before marriage, what's his is his and what's hers is hers.  After marriage, it's joint property, joint assets and joint decision making.  That's the way it works under U.S. law. 

We must also consider the fact that when a person tries to assert retroactive control over another person and attempts to take from them their right to free will , something is at work in the usurper's mind other than real love. 

As previously noted, the guy was single and saving for his motorcycle long before he became involved with her - and then she arrives on the scene and attempts to assert retroactive control over his money and his choices back to the time before she came on the scene?? 

I can't blame him for saying "no, thanks" to her attempt to financially cuckold him.

 

If a relationship between people comes down to the law... It is about merging lives, not about disputing borders.

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, Ko.Fe. said:

How did I missed this one. Wait, it is two thousands one post about Leica been for rich, give it for the proletariat, thing. 

Why? Proletariat could get same results, if not better with "Asian cameras" (this is how OP called them).

Should MB and Jaguar given for proletariat as well? And Rolex? Fifty bucks Rolex for all!

It is time to realize what Leica is the luxury brand most and foremost. And here is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

People are buying MB, Rolex and Leica for pleasure to own. MB, Rolex and Leica might be not technically the best, but they know the secret how make cameras look nice and feel nice. Not an easy thing these days.

As for suffering from high prices of Leica proletariat... I have seen so called low incomers flying to Cuba and elsewhere to just eat, drink and get fat under hot sun. Thousands of dollars spend by those low incomers for something stupid.

Often it is not income problem, but setting up priorities. 

 

@Ko.Fe. we are certainly in agreement on this topic.

As for the $50 Rolex for the masses - those are already available.  Just go to the nearest big city and seek out the shady looking gent lurking on a street corner in a long raincoat.  He will pull up his sleeves and offer you your choice of a dozen different models of $50 supposed "Rolexes."

The point is this:  The thing that makes a Rolex a Rolex are impeccable craftsmanship, design, high standards of performance, extremely high quality and heritage - none of which are to be had on the cheap. Same with Leica, Mercedes and Jaguar.  

A lot of people think of Leica as a "luxury" camera (and/or lens).  My view is that Leica is a high performance, high quality camera (and/or lens).  Making photographs with a Leica M camera is akin to driving a Lamborghini IMHO.  The result is enjoyment, excitement, giddiness and just plain good, clean fun (not that I have yet driven or ridden in a Lamborghini, but I'm guessing).

As HCB observed, "Shooting with a Leica is like a long tender kiss, like firing an automatic pistol, like an hour on the analyst’s couch."  It brings passion and excitement to life - and there is nothing wrong with that.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Herr Barnack]

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9 minutes ago, jaapv said:

If a relationship between people comes down to the law... It is about merging lives, not about disputing borders.

Merging lives - and respecting rightful boundaries.  😊

Edited December 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[LocalHero1953]

12 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

"I kicked her ass to the curb and bought my motorcycle,"

I'd say she had a lucky escape. Jerk indeed. What an unpleasant story.

Edited December 23, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

34 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Merging lives - and respecting rightful boundaries.  😊

Rightful? No wonder the divorce rate is as high as it is...This sounds like p****ng against lamp posts. 

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

On 10/2/2020 at 8:09 AM, Tom1234 said: Leica might have a better "economic system", at a more reasonable new price and greater sales, with the accompanying better/larger repair department.  The existing repair department could not fully fix my Tri-Elmar 28-35-50 lens.

Yes I totally agree. Traditionally, exactly the repairability was one of Leica/Leitz’s relatively unique selling points. With the introduction of digital M’s this asset has held out let’s say 8 years in my perception, although it began to crumble slowly.

Over the past year I have tried to find a place that will repair a Nikon AW-1 winder… a simple device from the 1970s.  They say they have no parts but when I say I will send a second unit to them for parts they just don't respond.  Nikon USA won't do it and four other Nikon-able service shops won't do it.

Leica repairs might go undone on older equipment except that DAG (Don Goldstien) continues and thrives.  

I have given up on using Leica new equipment repairs… maybe Panasonic repair is better?   The S5 is liked according to reviews so I may be forced to that.  Nikon USA will work on new equipment though so Z5 might be a way to go + techart focus mount. 

Repair in USA is bad due to the high taxes of the last 40 years putting small businesses out of business - this is not a political statement just true economically. 

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

.

Nice picture of black flower on your site:  https://lotwouda.zenfolio.com

[Herr Barnack]

41 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Rightful? No wonder the divorce rate is as high as it is...This sounds like p****ng against lamp posts. 

Agree to disagree, then.

I speak from experience, having been in relationships with manipulating, overbearing women who have a need to control and consume a man.  Therein lies the path to hell.

Having been married to a wonderful, loving, caring woman for 27 years who understands the wisdom of not being controlling, manipulating and overbearing, I am fairly certain at this juncture that my life choices with regard to relationships and my one and only marriage have proven to be wise choices.  I would add that Mrs. Barnack is of the same mind regarding her choices, which is of paramount importance to me.

I'm going back to discussing Leica cameras and lenses now - pretty sure this relationship horse has petered out and needs to be put to rest.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[jaapv]

Only 27 years?  

[otto.f]

52 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

Nice picture of black flower on your site:  https://lotwouda.zenfolio.com

Yeah, I’m very happy with it. Although it’s made on 4x5” I like to grab the opportunity to advertise ADOX. The last years they bring more and more interesting analogue products on the market, except paper, which they are yet busy to develop. This rose was shot with the ADOX CHS 100 ii, which I find a very beautiful film. For 35mm I use the Scala160 and develop in Silvermax with great satisfaction. 

[Tom1234]

2 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Yeah, I’m very happy with it. Although it’s made on 4x5” I like to grab the opportunity to advertise ADOX. The last years they bring more and more interesting analogue products on the market, except paper, which they are yet busy to develop. This rose was shot with the ADOX CHS 100 ii, which I find a very beautiful film. For 35mm I use the Scala160 and develop in Silvermax with great satisfaction. 

Love 4x5 work.  It has a natural looking higher resolution that is really special.  

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Only 27 years?  

That's six and a half "normal" marriages (🙄)  by today's standards...

Edited December 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Ko.Fe.]

6 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

 

The point is this:  The thing that makes a Rolex a Rolex are impeccable craftsmanship, design, high standards of performance, extremely high quality and heritage - none of which are to be had on the cheap. Same with Leica, Mercedes and Jaguar.  

A lot of people think of Leica as a "luxury" camera (and/or lens).  My view is that Leica is a high performance, high quality camera (and/or lens).  Making photographs with a Leica M camera is akin to driving a Lamborghini IMHO.  The result is enjoyment, excitement, giddiness and just plain good, clean fun (not that I have yet driven or ridden in a Lamborghini, but I'm guessing).

I know nothing about Rolex like watches. It is associated with not good people in my culture.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-patriarch-kirill-wristwatchbling-expensive-scrutiny/30420982.html

I'd rather spend on Toyota Landcruiser 70 than useless where I drive Lambordgini. 

But I knew people who are driving Mercedes. It went to the trash a while ago. Nothing but show up left. 

https://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-classic-car-news/something-for-the-bank-holiday-weekend-mercedes-benz-w123

Leica... Just read M10 first four pages, here at LUF. I read and I won't touch this camera with ten feet pole.

Leica makes cute cameras and lenses. They are sexiest cameras lenses ever made. Just like useless Lamborgini.

But for true photography, which is content and sufficient technologies Leica is nowhere near Canon, Nikon, Sony and else.

It is laughable on Leica it can't AF M lenses, but Sony can.

Sorry, I'm not on self-illusion side of yours. It is nice to own, use MB, Jaguar and Leica. But not practical  at all. Proletariat, OP is so concern, with will survive it with Toyotas and Canon. Luxury is anti-proletariat.

No real pro needs luxury appeal. Pro needs serice. Leica  service is next to not existing or just not existing in G7 country like Canada. Canon has huge building here. Whom do you think I trust with my money more? Some tiny company which still doesn't know how flash works or company with service showing status repair on-line and within days of turn around?

[pgk]

15 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Merging lives - and respecting rightful boundaries.  😊

Absolutely right. She-who-must-be-obeyed tells me that I'm not allowed to buy another motorbike and I acquiesce. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, especially when I point out that the latest camera is sooo much cheaper than a motorbike .....

[pgk]

9 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Pro needs serice. Leica  service is next to not existing or just not existing in G7 country like Canada. Canon has huge building here. Whom do you think I trust with my money more? Some tiny company which still doesn't know how flash works or company with service showing status repair on-line and within days of turn around?

With all due respect Ko.Fe. you have clearly never used Leica's Pro service. I have done, just a couple of times, and it has surpassed any other camera manufacturer's so-called 'pro' service by far. Camera/lens shipped to Germany and returned fully repaired within a week. Leica don't seem to require a minimum amount of owned equipment but do require proof of professional status. Other makers seem to require a minimum ownership of 'pro' designated gear and don't seem to need proof of absolute (full-time' professional status - often their 'pro' service systems look more like a 'status club' than genuine pro repair system as they used to be decades ago. I've given up with dealing with the maker's pro status/repair systems and just use good repairers these days - apart from Leica which I've had to use for accidental damage and once or twice for a camera repair and this is in the last 14 years and have found them to be excellent.

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[mmradman]

3 hours ago, pgk said:

With all due respect Ko.Fe. you have clearly never used Leica's Pro service. I have done, just a couple of times, and it has surpassed any other camera manufacturer's so-called 'pro' service by far. Camera/lens shipped to Germany and returned fully repaired within a week. Leica don't seem to require a minimum amount of owned equipment but do require proof of professional status. Other makers seem to require a minimum ownership of 'pro' designated gear and don't seem to need proof of absolute (full-time' professional status - often their 'pro' service systems look more like a 'status club' than genuine pro repair system as they used to be decades ago. I've given up with dealing with the maker's pro status/repair systems and just use good repairers these days - apart from Leica which I've had to use for accidental damage and once or twice for a camera repair and this is in the last 14 years and have found them to be excellent.

Nice story, please enlighten us when was it last time you received prompt one week turnaround  professional service.

My current view is considering state of photographic business today and kind of money Leica is charging my status as either amateur or working professional should be irrelevant unless you as professional photographer are prepared to pay extra premium for the utility of fast service.  Again considering price point and reputation one should expect that Leica cameras and lenses  come with impeccable QC, which as we know is not always the case if multiple problems reported on M and S platforms have anything to do with it, and also impeccable after sale service which sort of implies fast service turnaround.