EXPANDING THE LEICA MARKET: Leica Pricing, Markets Addressed, Economics of New & Used

[Tom1234]

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Opportunities flow in front of you and you should take advantage of them.  Hesitate they are gone...

[pgk]

4 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

A person taking a picture of a flower, should be able to instantly go into video mode if a bee comes near that flower, then go out of video mode after it flys off.

Utter nonsense. Use a phone if this is how you think. An M camera is totally unsuited to such 'versatility' and if you want a camera to do everything then look elsewhere.

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[Tom1234]

   4 hours ago,  Tom1234 said: 

A person taking a picture of a flower, should be able to instantly go into video mode if a bee comes near that flower, then go out of video mode after it flys off.

pgk SAID:

Utter nonsense. Use a phone if this is how you think. An M camera is totally unsuited to such 'versatility' and if you want a camera to do everything then look elsewhere.

Tom1234 ANSWER:

I guess you think Leica can not cut it in the modern world.  I think they can.  

Since the Leica design department keeps adding things, we need to help them know what is useful.  Why abandon them?  I want Leica to survive and thrive.  They went out of business when they stood still and sold lessor product.  Now they are designing again and selling.   Long Live Leica!

Edited October 4, 2020 by Tom1234

[pgk]

I suggest that you spend some time reading through the LUF. This has been done to death. The M is a niche product, has been since the advent of the Nikon F and will be in future. Trying to make a niche product compete with all singing, all dancing equipment from other manufactures, and indeed, against Leica's other products, is unlikely to do anything other than dilute the M's appeal to its user base. There are some of us who would happily lose features which we see as irrelevant to the M's core functions. Video has been tried and is IMO like adding video functionality to a brick. The M is totally unsuited for use as a video camera for numerous reasons. The M's 'essence' is that it is has a mechanical rangefinder and MF lenses. These limit its functionality but give the user a totally different photograph taking experience. As a stills camera it is a no frills tool and exceptionally good at what it offers.

[250swb]

3 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

Opportunities flow in front of you and you should take advantage of them.  Hesitate they are gone...

The bee flew away before you could photograph it, so it was gone.

 

[andybarton]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

They went out of business when they stood still and sold lessor product.

When was that?

[Tom1234]

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31 minutes ago, andybarton said:

When was that?

 The link tells part of the story.  https://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/47/Leica-Camera-AG.html

Maybe the term "not profitable" is a better term.  In the late 1990's I was wondering if I had thrown my money away when buying Leica products.  From 1999 on they seem to be in good hands and hopefully profitable.

[andybarton]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:09 AM, Tom1234 said:

Has Leica priced only for the super rich not the middle class or even worker-who-can-save?  With M10's going USED at $4,5000 TO $5,500 most people can not afford them.  Even used only the super rich can afford them.

If they had sold the new M10's around $4,500, about $2,000 above the $2,500 that the Asian cameras sell for, then used the Leica would sell for $2,000 to $3,000 where many could afford them.

Just a couple of comments from me.

 

1. I am not “super-rich” or even “ordinary-rich” by any stretch of the imagination, but I am very happy with my two Leica bodies (M2 and M240) and four lenses. I had to save to buy them. 

2. Have you seen how Leicas are made? Have you seen how the mass-produced cameras are made? Have you seen what Leicas are made of? And compared that with other cameras?

If you ever get the chance, take a tour of the Leica factory in Wetzlar. It’s very easy to see where a good proportion of the price premium goes. Plus of course, a rangefinder mechanism is an expensive thing to manufacture.

[BlackDoc]

Don´t feed the troll.

 

[Tom1234]

26 minutes ago, BlackDoc said:

Don´t feed the troll.

 

Thank you.  I have been wondering what I am dealing with.  Been afraid to leave things unsaid.  This is only about the tenth forum Thread I have been on.  Usually I quit due to Trolls and don't come back. But you people here are quite intelligent and I would miss you.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Tom1234
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[Tom1234]

32 minutes ago, andybarton said:

Just a couple of comments from me.

 

1. I am not “super-rich” or even “ordinary-rich” by any stretch of the imagination, but I am very happy with my two Leica bodies (M2 and M240) and four lenses. I had to save to buy them. 

2. Have you seen how Leicas are made? Have you seen how the mass-produced cameras are made? Have you seen what Leicas are made of? And compared that with other cameras?

If you ever get the chance, take a tour of the Leica factory in Wetzlar. It’s very easy to see where a good proportion of the price premium goes. Plus of course, a rangefinder mechanism is an expensive thing to manufacture.

I agree Leica has great value and for good reasons.  I just hate to seem them go out of my affordability even in the use market.

[jdlaing]

4 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

I agree Leica has great value and for good reasons.  I just hate to seem them go out of my affordability even in the use market.

That’s kind of a “you” issue and not Leica’s. I would not expect them to cater to 100% of the population. They have survived 100 years or so just fine.

[andybarton]

6 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

I agree Leica has great value and for good reasons.  I just hate to seem them go out of my affordability even in the use market.

I’d quite like a Porsche 911, but unfortunately they have priced them out of my affordability window. 
 

I think that they should immediately reduce their prices by £40,000

 

[Gibbo]

I want a Rolls Royce ............ bastards 😡

[Tom1234]

And I want an Airplane, a Jet!      

Who stops me from getting it!    

There must be someone I can blame!  

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[LocalHero1953]

When I first got interested in Leicas, the M4.2 was the current model, and I was 27. There was no way I could afford a new one, nor yet a used M4. I found a battered M3 from around 1954 and paid as much for it as I had paid for a new Pentax MX + lens a year or so earlier.

Lesson 1: Some things are the same as they have always been. Leicas have always been expensive.

Lesson 2: Some things have changed out of all recognition. Would I buy a 26 year old digital camera now? Only for antique value.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[Ouroboros]

Before I can see anything in this thread beyond the OP whinging about not being able to afford new or used Leica cameras, I need to know what 'Euro-Color' is!

[250swb]

16 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

I agree Leica has great value and for good reasons.  I just hate to seem them go out of my affordability even in the use market.

Is not having the Leica you want stopping you from doing something? 

 

[Tom1234]

Quote: "What is Euro Color?"  

Euro Color is greater saturation of colors.  Partial summary of how they likely do it, below:

For any given sensor, the cameras with the greatest apparent dynamic brightness range must use a lighter RGB color array over the sensor to let in more light but this makes the colors washed out.  It is no secret that Sony has ultra light color and their sensor is called the most sensitive, yet it may not be the most sensitive, it might be just their lighter RGB color array letting in more light.  Maybe Canon outdoes Sony on some models?

Probably Leica must darken the color array to create a more saturated color, the Euro Look (Leica Look) as I call it, or they use the same color array and do the saturation-darkening in the software.  But to get accurate colors I would think that they have to use a darker color array not just software adjustments.  A painter would call this adding black paint to make the color more saturated or adding more white to the color to get lessor saturation. To get more saturation, the Euro Look, you loose a half-stop, stop, or stop-&-a-half of dynamic brightness range, and it is worth it if you like saturated colors like I do.  Perhaps a better term for this look/style of color science is dark saturation while others use lite saturation. 

Using the most gradual color brightness curve, I think they call it "log" in video files, you capture the most light available from the sensor but it usually looks too FLAT and probably the colors are washed out in the final picture, so then you adjust it in post production software to achieve the color-&-brightness-range "look" (color science) that you want.   

I don't like this fix-it-in-post paradigm much, it makes photography too technical.  In still photography they call this best-from-the-sensor file "camera raw".  Yet few camera makers will give you a bad looking flat washed out file, so they tweak it to some likable salable color saturation level AKA their very own unique mine-is-better-than-yours "color science".  

This was likely the problem in the M240 that they optimized for the longest dynamic brightness range but that tends to give flat (lower contrast) color as was complained about in the m240 (yet many liked it too) yet it did not have the 3d-pop-&-color of the M9.  Maybe Leica adjusted this in firmware to make it look more saturated later (higher contrast within the colors) - I don't know since I don't own that camera.

Please understand I am on Leica's side on this issue and most issues.  Leica is dealing with the limits of engineering, economics, and physics. Leica makes the best decisions they can to produce a differentiated product with a large enough market to stay in business.  Long Live Leica!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array#List_of_color_filter_arrays

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[Tom1234]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

Is not having the Leica you want stopping you from doing something? 

 

Answer + M11 Hopes:

I still have the M8.2 and M9 and M7 and MDA and that damn smartphone (iPod in my case).  I still can do what I want to, but, not "the way" I want to.  I would rather do it "the Leica M10 way"  with its longer dynamic range and excellent dark areas with less noise - I like the art of this new camera.  Thank you Leica for the lessor noise in the darks. 

Sorry, but to restate my opening statement of this Thread:  I still believe if Leica would release a camera at a new price, just above the entry level prices of other makers (at about $3,500 to $4,500) as others sell at $2,500, they might double sales.  Yes, I could be overly enthusiastic, but wouldn't even a 25% rise in sales be nice?

This new market could grow larger as new users take Leica on.  As we old guys die off, Leica needs a new younger buyer, but why should the new buyer take the plunge-of-faith into ultra-high price extremes, the people who do that are few.  And, new buyers need to try the M models not the Asian camera copy-cat low end models. 

The best way to test the waters might be with the M11, or call it a M11-V including a video codec or two or three.  The problem here of course is not making the camera a big heavy pig due to the video. 

Since they are obviously sticking out there in the marketplace, model-after-model with small variations in design, to generate more sales through new releases - it is no big deal to make the next camera a trial-ballon, a test of the waters, at a different price with different design.

I know this upsets some people, but I think we need to allow Leica latitude in their approach, and not pick on them about it.  

Trolls please take a trip to the bathroom, don't dump on me. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Tom1234
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