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EXPANDING THE LEICA MARKET: Leica Pricing, Markets Addressed, Economics of New & Used


Tom1234

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Last time I looked a Nikon D6 cost 7200 Euro...

Yes, 7200 Euro is right up there with the cost of M10's at B&H.  Maybe as the cameras get better, the makers know they will sell less of them, so they put the prices higher to cover their costs.

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The problem with your thoughts is that they are based on the 'smash and grab' style of photo enthusiast who flits from one system to another because they hope one day to find something that makes them look like a genius. Does Leica need them? No.

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7 minutes ago, carbon_dragon said:

Right. I would have used my Contax RTS camera for a lot longer if I had been able to. But when the electronics failed I couldn't. And no-one could repair it.

This is so true of any used item.  How to get it repaired?  Similar to Exotic cars with no repair place in town.  First find a repair place only then buy the product is my normal procedure with such items.  DAG, Don Goldstein, is great for old Leica M, nice to deal with, and he has many parts:  https://www.dagcamera.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

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2 minutes ago, 250swb said:

The problem with your thoughts is that they are based on the 'smash and grab' style of photo enthusiast who flits from one system to another because they hope one day to find something that makes them look like a genius. Does Leica need them? No.

Really where I am coming from is how could Leica double sales, and increase their market, so they could afford a bigger sized repair department, and generally have better support?  There is a sort of critical-mass size for companies to be complete and do all the things they should do, in order to maintain their user base. 

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16 minutes ago, 250swb said:

The problem with your thoughts is that they are based on the 'smash and grab' style of photo enthusiast who flits from one system to another because they hope one day to find something that makes them look like a genius. Does Leica need them? No.

I will say it differently:

customer grab it (Leica M9) and Leica smashed it (sensor corrosion and) 

🙂

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Grab & smash… I get it!  Good way to put it. 

As Carbon_Dragon wrote, with the new digital systems the life expectancy of the camera & its quality are very short lived, forcing the user to "flit" to the next camera.  I would think that the flitting is caused by a need for a better sensor since digital noise is so objectionable and an added problem to grain.  Previously just changing to a different film was all that is needed.  The digital camera market is just different from the film camera market.  

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1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

Grab & smash… I get it!  Good way to put it. 

As Carbon_Dragon wrote, with the new digital systems the life expectancy of the camera & its quality are very short lived, forcing the user to "flit" to the next camera.  I would think that the flitting is caused by a need for a better sensor since digital noise is so objectionable and an added problem to grain.  Previously just changing to a different film was all that is needed.  The digital camera market is just different from the film camera market.  

So I guess by those standards if you were using digital five years ago none of your photographs are now any good. That's a shame. 

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1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

Grab & smash… I get it!  Good way to put it. 

As Carbon_Dragon wrote, with the new digital systems the life expectancy of the camera & its quality are very short lived, forcing the user to "flit" to the next camera.  I would think that the flitting is caused by a need for a better sensor since digital noise is so objectionable and an added problem to grain.  Previously just changing to a different film was all that is needed.  The digital camera market is just different from the film camera market.  

Sheesh - I took this photo 11 year ago... On the noisiest camera available (DMR/R9)..., 16 years old today and it still works ;). Useless I agree 🙄.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/102495-masai-mara/?tab=comments#comment-1101929

 

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I mean that the poor dynamic range camera, that you bought and overpaid for, due to being overcome by branding glitz, now stops you from taking the low light pictures that you could otherwise take, and it is even worse knowing that a new lower priced camera's better spec makes those pictures possible.  

So with the old digital camera, you are missing pictures that others are getting with a newer camera.  Blinded by branding, is what I call it, when you hold an old lessor camera with your nose high acting like that is a good thing.  Pride cometh before a fall (fall in quality) as they say...

Still I keep my M9 for the great CCD color that Cmos cameras can not produce without editing color adjustment.  Straight out of the camera my shots look better than the flat CMOS pictures.  

Of course any camera used correctly might take a stunning picture.  Just look at the link for Jaapv's Leica R9 with digital back.  As good as I've seen anywhere.  Why buy a new camera when you can take such stunning photos?

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Leica M cameras are sold at a higher price than most others. 
 

A lot of people wear a wristwatch but not as many wear a Breitling or a Rolex.

A lot of people drive a car but not as many drive a Bugatti or a Bentley.

You buy and use what you can afford.

I believe Leica should do exactly what they have been doing and not try to cheapen or reduce the product. I like it for what it is and would hate to see it become a “me too” camera.

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12 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

But of course the Asian cameras are a horror story of complexity to operate, so many users dislike them.  Asian digital cameras remove the sense of being an artist and turn you into a technician.

One of my Aunts once received 4 kilos of grain for working full time for a whole year...the following year she received 6 kilos of sugar and she said she felt super rich....but moving on.

Anyway couldn’t you make a stronger case for Asian digital cameras to become more artistic feeling in nature  with Leica like design parameters. I imagine they have the resources to simplify their products which might then force Leica to review their prices as the differentiators become narrower. Extending that scenario I imagine Leica would reach their margin tipping point quite quickly.

So the question I have for you is:  if the Asian digital camera industry wrapped up their optical and technological offering in a Leica like usability package would raising the question of Leica extending their market be relevant to you?

 

 

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42 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

"So the question I have for you is:  if the Asian digital camera industry wrapped up their optical and technological offering in a Leica like usability package would raising the question of Leica extending their market be relevant to you?

If Nikon with their color science put out an M type body for rangefinder M lenses at a realistic price then yes I would be very interested.  I own two Nikon EL2 bodies which are built-like-a-tank so I know they could do this. 

But, I would be heart broken if Leica went down to such competition without a fight.  I would hope that Leica would rise to the occasion and drop prices to compete as I have suggested.  

Overall, I love Leica's aesthetic decisions, light weight, simpler (but not simple) menus, and right sized camera body in the M and do not want to switch.  

I own many of Leica's historic 1930's through 1980's lenses which give a visual rendition that I can not get from any modern lens.  The new lenses seem to aim for a "perfect" Aspherical type sharpness so they all produce a similar aesthetic.  The old Leica lenses still standout in their ability to produce so called smooth-sharpness and other eye-like visual character, that though not perfect, is aesthetically pleasing and natural similar to human eye sight aberrations.  Can you get this human like realism aesthetic with the new "everything looks perfect" lenses and perspective correcting bodies, I think not.

After comparing a number of competing makers M mount lenses, I sold them since my Leica lenses gave a more pleasing aesthetic.  I have finished looking for the latest and greatest lenses from other makers, and only would buy them to save money, not to find some elusive better aesthetic.  I will always need a body to work with these old M lenses.  I hope I do not get stupid enough to sell my extensive Leica lens collection.  

Still, I hope the m10 will drop in price on the used market into the $2k+ range because I will not pay $8k for any camera body except a professional Cinema camera since I went to film school.  Notice that for the $2k+ price I can get a fine NEW mirrorless camera producing stunning images. 

Given the repair problems (read the Amazon 2 star review below) I do not fancy buying any maker's camera online that I have not tested, and I have no local or nearby Leica dealer.  Another camera maker has had similar problems I found in another review. Thus I started this thread in part to show my dilemma, and how it might be corrected, if the Leica market was built up larger, then my 1 million population market might be able to sell one Leica camera every month or two.   

https://www.amazon.com/Leica-M10-Digital-Rangefinder-Camera/dp/B01N4QHHUV#customerReviews

Still I say… "long live Leica!"

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6 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

I mean that the poor dynamic range camera, that you bought and overpaid for, due to being overcome by branding glitz, now stops you from taking the low light pictures that you could otherwise take, and it is even worse knowing that a new lower priced camera's better spec makes those pictures possible.  

 

But the camera you bought and overpaid for is every digital camera you ever bought. Why make the point only against Leica?

Buy a Nikon Z7 and eventually the Nikon Z8 will come along and darn it, that sunset with boats bobbing on the sea could perhaps look so much better with a Nikon Z8?  You've mentioned film as being a parameter, so you choose Tri-X or whatever and the result is what you expect Tri-X to look like, so why shouldn't an M9 be an equal parameter and the image looks like what an M9 image should look like? Which photograph is better, a good image with an M9 or an average image with an M10-R?

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4 hours ago, 250swb said:

But the camera you bought and overpaid for is every digital camera you ever bought. Why make the point only against Leica?

Buy a Nikon Z7 and eventually the Nikon Z8 will come along and darn it, that sunset with boats bobbing on the sea could perhaps look so much better with a Nikon Z8?  You've mentioned film as being a parameter, so you choose Tri-X or whatever and the result is what you expect Tri-X to look like, so why shouldn't an M9 be an equal parameter and the image looks like what an M9 image should look like? Which photograph is better, a good image with an M9 or an average image with an M10-R?

First Paragraph Answer: I agree the point can be made against all digital cameras.  I wait to see how the users review them to avoid the stinker and lessor cameras.  With high priced cameras who can afford to make a mistake? 

Second paragraph: Like you I agree a person should use what they have.  There is always an excuse to get yet another camera when the one you have is fine used correctly.  

BUT IF YOU JUST ARGUE AGAINST ALL specmenship (specification hunting & buying) then who would buy Leica?  They also have a specification that improves.  

THIS THREAD IS FINISHED.  I wanted to make a point that there is a different price point that might double Leica sales and make it possible for a camera store in my area to carry a Leica camera to build their store credability but not at the prices presently sold in my market of 1 million + people. 

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Not too many years ago, Apple made the Apple Watch and made one with a solid gold case. This was somewhat controversial and I see it as a possible way to think about the Leica Ms in the digital age (though they parallel isn't precise). Generally when one makes a solid gold watch, the intention is to create a product that lasts over an extended period of time (maybe a lifetime). Granted any technology has its flaws (even mechanical). For instance my Longines Ultrachron watch has a solid gold case and is all mechanical, yet though it works these days, it has a slightly delicate date wheel because mechanical parts aren't available. But that is 50 years old! That is still pretty good.

So what is wrong with a gold Apple watch? Well the "gold case" part tends to make people think of this as a long term purchase. But the internal electronics is much more ephemeral, involving the tech inside, parts availability, and compatibility with the latest OS updates. It's the contradiction between those two things that causes the potential problem. 

So the Leica M (not every Leica, but the M in particular) isn't made of gold, but they are still somewhat similar in that they are made to last (at least the shell and the mechanical parts) but have parts inside which have a different expectation of how long they should last in service. It's that contradiction, much like the gold Apple watch, which has the potential to create a problem.

So it's not that the Leica Ms use substandard electronic parts (they don't). It's not that they are or should be required to maintain those parts longer than other digital camera manufacturers. It's only that most of us with Leica Ms don't really think of digital Ms the same way we would think of a Sony A7R or even a Leica Q. Partly that is our own failure to consider what the digital internals mean. Partly it's the expectation we have based on the perceived solidarity and quality of the Ms (even the digital Ms). So maybe it's our fault, but there is still a "state" change between mechanical Ms and digital Ms. I think it is worth considering this when deciding how much to pay for a digital M (new or used).

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The Longines Watch company put out a great Christmas music album years ago.  The best I've ever heard by anybody it even beats Bing Crosby and Sinatra records. 

Your points about longevity expectations is well taken and a market state change going from film to digital.  Under film they could build a small tank camera body so to speak of quality and repair it for years.

Under the general digital product paradigm (even outside the camera industry) companies build a product which has parts outdated when they are no longer made the next year. I do NOT KNOW if Leica uses them, but some of the "modern" electronic parts are called SMD's (surface mount devices), and after 5 years or so will lift one of their many contacts partly off the electronic base board and it can NOT be detected except that the product quits working.  

I had a big screen TV that used SMD's and NO repair shop would work on it. They said it used SMD's (a Mitsubishi) all over the various electronic boards and they would NEVER be able to find which SMD was lifting off the electronic boards.  I had to pay to have it hauled away by a a-guy-and-a-truck moving service that said he hauled off and trashed many of these big screen TV's every year for their owners.  

Due to this lack of serviceability and certain breakage maybe I should not spend large amounts of money on my next camera.  Where to go from here?

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On 10/2/2020 at 8:42 AM, carbon_dragon said:
On 10/2/2020 at 9:03 AM, carbon_dragon said:

SELECTED QUOTES:

In the past, you could amortize the cost of a Leica over a longer number of years. Sure the M2 you were eyeing was expensive, BUT you could use it for decades if you wanted to. And because of this they held their value very well as well.

...BUT the recent M9 sensor issue has demonstrated quite clearly that digital Ms have a limit on guaranteed ability to repair (due to parts scarcity). Owner of Contax RTS cameras have learned this already.

So now the price of the new cameras is not quite as "affordable" IMHO.  But I don't believe this has sunk in to the market. [I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE - TOM1234]

In any case, I think the pricing might produce a long term problem for Leica but I guess we'll see. At 63 my M10 might still outlast me,

but if I were doing it over again, I might go a different route. 

 

QUESTION:  What other direction might you go?  For me...

M10: I will wait a couple of years until the M10 drops to a reasonable features-price combination, and buy if they are still working, given the outdated and inherently lighter duty electronics replacing mechanical parts in all cameras not just in Leica and due to Leica's slow  repair department that could not fully repair my Tri-Elmar-28-35-50.

Nikon: Another direction for me would probably be Nikon since I have some Nikon compatible lenses by Tokina.  Tokina is a company started by old Nikon Engineers in the 1970's.  

I went to Film School years ago so I might want video.  

Fuji is pleasantly talked about but after buying a Leica TL2 and an Epson rangefinder I decided that the small format did not make full use of my old Leica len's renditions.    

The TL2 seemed to be broken, its features worked inconsistently, the menus were insane to deal with, certainly it was not the way to go with its poor focusing for my old Leica M lenses, and it was too small not balancing well any medium to large lens attached - I sent it back.  

At $2,500 to $3,000 there are some tremendous cameras out there that have essentially ALL the features anyone could ever want.  What is your pick?

Edited by Tom1234
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On 10/2/2020 at 8:42 AM, carbon_dragon said:

They are, in general, very well made BUT the recent M9 sensor issue has demonstrated quite clearly that digital Ms have a limit on guaranteed ability to repair (due to parts scarcity). Owner of Contax RTS cameras have learned this already. So now the price of the new cameras is not quite as "affordable" IMHO.

But I don't believe this has sunk in to the market.

I saw an M9 body with a bad sensor going for around $1,200 and read that it would cost about $1,200 to get the sensor replaced, the repair price is likely  not accurate and the repair not even possible, but somebody out there thinks it is, this totals to $2,400 for a functioning body.  

But, Leica says no new sensors at this link, showing the parts unavailability as you and I have noticed, but there seems to be a trade in program still in place which is really really nice:

https://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Global/2020/Repair-capacity-for-camera-models-Leica-M9-M9-P-M9-Monochrom-M-E

Leica's Kind Quote from the webpage: 

The production of the CCD sensors for the Leica M9 models has been discontinued. Therefore, subsequent deliveries are no longer possible and defective sensors cannot be replaced. Until further notice, all other repairs on the M9 model generation can still be carried out.

In place of the sensor exchange we are offering new attractive conditions to our customers to trade in their camera with a defective sensor and purchase a current Leica camera model.

I think you have stated it dead center correct, that the market has NOT priced in the service limitations on digital product, given that all digital cameras are subject to electronic parts that are not repairable or replaceable.  This has been a great thread!

Edited by Tom1234
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On 10/2/2020 at 8:42 AM, carbon_dragon said:

At 63 my M10 might still outlast me, but if I were doing it over again, I might go a different route. 

I do not think you should feel bad about your choice of M10.  After spending many days and hours researching Leica's latest offerings it seems to be their best.  It has world class color rendition with the Euro saturated colors, a great dynamic range, and the ability to "go to black pixels instead of to noise pixels" which really cleans up the dark areas of a picture.  It is smaller than most cameras making it a joy to carry.  It mounts Leica-M lenses which have a history of varied renditions going back to the 1920's. 

The only addition I can see is that of video.  A person taking a picture of a flower, should be able to instantly go into video mode if a bee comes near that flower, then go out of video mode after it flys off.  This might be the Holy Grail of features, an instant (not delayed) flow from still to video and back, using buttons correctly placed to simplify the operation.  It is probably on other cheaper cameras but not with Leica's other great features. 

Maybe the M11 will have such a video feature, though I think they may have decided to leave video off the traditional M body to make it smaller.  They almost had it right with the M240, the problem here was probably the lack of dynamic range at that generation of sensor, yet many liked the M240, I hope they try again.

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1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

A person taking a picture of a flower, should be able to instantly go into video mode if a bee comes near that flower, then go out of video mode after it flys off.

It sounds like neither the bee or the photographer could make up their minds about why they were there.

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