This is why I bought an M10R

[Jeff S]

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I’ve had vintage silver prints from many great photographers... Evans, Strand, Weston, et. al...on my walls, as well as my own photographs, which span from 80’s film work to current digital prints. Not one recent print has obsoleted an earlier one.  Nobody knows or gives a crap what gear was used. 
 

Modern cameras haven’t fundamentally changed my black and white print style, either in size (smallish), style or rendering preferences.  That’s where the darkroom, or Lightroom, comes into play. Shadows go black, if need be, regardless of the camera’s dynamic range. Gear doesn’t dictate my results; it merely makes getting there easier in many cases (except for the difficulty achieving digital highlight subtleties at times). The one thing that digital has afforded me is the opportunity to make my own color prints, even though I’m a b&w photographer at heart.  
 

If others choose a different path, and have different goals or preferences, I couldn’t care less.  Options and choices are a good thing.

Jeff

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

OK so I'm a traditionalist and like to use a camera to record only what I see, blinding light, dark shadows and all. So a few thousand dollars for 'a bit more headroom' will undoubtedly be a red rag to a bull while photography generally is becoming increasingly bland and thoughtless.

Today, a very dear friend asked for some images of a mutual friend playing vibes at a private concert in 2012. I was shooting with the M9 then, and 1600 ISO was really pushing it. The concert was in a barn with no extra lighting, but with some very fine musicians. It was very dark, the pictures are okay(ish) (No flash allowed) but the friend wants to print them big for a long term installation of bands and players. If I had had an M10, or an SL2, they would have been great. It was just too dark for what one could do even 8 years ago. Neil (the vibes player) died of cancer a few years later,

New opportunities, abilities and new tools may well tempt people to indiscretions, but they also give us opportunities which weren’t there before. I just wish the pictures of Neil were better than they are

 

[jaapv]

I have been reworking old files with modern software,notably CC 2020, Topaz Sharpen  AI and Topaz Denoise. It is amazing what present-day programs can pull from these old files 

[jdlaing]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I have been reworking old files with modern software,notably CC 2020, Topaz Sharpen  AI and Topaz Denoise. It is amazing what present-day programs can pull from these old files 

The software tech marches faster than the equipment in some cases.

[Pixeleater]

11 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi there

I have a problem here, if I knew the answer to this, then I couldn’t possibly tell you, and if I don’t know the answer then my guess is as good as yours. But I’m not that rich, and I’m not an idiot, so I would be unlikely to have just bought an M10-R if I thought it was going to be superseded in a month or so! (But I could be wrong!!!)

I knew as soon as I hit send that it really was a dumb question. I’m not rich either but am sometimes an idiot, as my question demonstrated. LOL. 

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

I knew as soon as I hit send that it really was a dumb question. I’m not rich either but am sometimes an idiot, as my question demonstrated. LOL. 

It wasn't a dumb question; it was just addressed to someone who is honor bound to play dumb, at least on this particular topic. 😀  Way of the world. But as we are under no such obligation. Let's briefly review a few well known facts to offer a take on what I assume is an underlying fear that a far more compelling M is just barely over the horizon. 

What do we actually know? The M10-M/R and S3 were just introduced.  Most of us believe that all three share the same sensor architecture. We presume this was done to spread the cost of development. Going your own way on a new sensor architecture is serious business, especially for a comparatively small concern. Not something undertaken on a whim. Consider the previous generation M10 sensor remained state of the M art for 3.5 years. It continues to soldier on. The M240's sensor ruled the M roost for over 4 years and remained in production cameras as recently as the M-E intro'd last year.  Seven years+. Given that the heart of the two latest Ms is a brand new part, what on earth would lead anyone to believe that a significantly better photographic engine is a year away?  History and common sense suggest that this is the M sensor for the next few years at least.

So what else might be around the corner that actually would warrant holding off and waiting for an actual M11***?  IBIS? We already have heard that this isn't likely anytime soon. Why? Well, if nothing else, they just introduced a brand new non-IBIS sensor. More pixels...  oh yea... brand new sensor.  Better DR...  sorry repeating myself... brand new sensor. Better battery life? E-shutter? Upgrade to Maestro 3 or beyond? Internal AI engine doing...? Likely I'm missing something here. Just what is it that those bloviating over the supposed limited shelf life of the 10-R are expecting to utterly bury it anytime soon?  I'm genuinely perplexed as to exactly what that might be.

To echo Jono, none of this reasoning guarantees that an M11 wont be announced tomorrow. But likewise, there's no certainty that the sun will rise in the morning. Both assertions involve probabilities based on historical observation; one admittedly a bit more certain than the other. Regardless, none of this nonsense addresses the real reasons, if any, to prefer a 10-R over whatever you currently are shooting.  That can go either way for any number of reasons. What it does suggest, IMO, is that any decision shouldn't be influenced by thinking that there is a high probability of the 10-R being significantly outdone by another M version anytime soon.

*** If the M11 even debuts in this decade. As I've mentioned elsewhere,  AFAICT, the model designation Leica employs refers to the physical body, not the content stuffed there-in. This, IMO, is the reason the M10-M/R are not branded as the M11 and M11M despite the generational change from an imaging standpoint.  If it's the same body, it gets the same number. It's not entirely impossible that a significant packaging change is under a year away and the next camera will be called M11 as a result.  If so it will, of necessity, largely be an M10-R in a M11 body. In which case, I'm perfectly happy with my M11 in an M10 body.

 

[Pixeleater]

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Thanks Tailwagger. I’m coming from a Q-P and waiting for my M10R preorder to ship. I’m happy that I’ll have the M10R for as long as I can take photographs. I don’t think I’ll ever fully push the camera’s range and I’m looking forward to a long enjoyable journey with it...and the Q-P.

[analog-digital]

Am 21.8.2020 um 19:01 schrieb jonoslack:

Thank you evilne I've corrected it - 

 

Why f 1.4?? Take f2 or 2.5!

[Bikie John]

14 hours ago, jonoslack said:

 

<Snip> I just wish the pictures of Neil were better than they are

 

You wish that Jono, and I entirely understand and would feel much the same. But do you think that the other musicians, and Neil's family and friends, care very much? It is a photo of their departed friend which can never be repeated, so it is loaded with meaning and value as it is.

We can just take comfort from knowing that the photos we make now will stand up better in a few years' time.

John

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Tailwagger:

[...]
So what else might be around the corner that actually would warrant holding off and waiting for an actual M11***?  IBIS? 
[...]

No IBIS in the M11 and how many M shooters will switch to the Panasonic S5? Heck, I might get myself a Kolari mod S5 down the road but before that I’ll trade my S1 in for it, as a second body to the SL2.

That 24 MPx dual native ISO 100 / 640 sensor will be incredible for low light shooting. I bet it’s a Sony BSI one, just like in the S1. It’s everything I wish for in an M11 and an SL3.

Aesthetically, the S5 will suck with M lenses, though. Still, it will be the second best non-M body to use M-mount lenses, IMO.

Leica has got its work cut out with the M11, I’m afraid. 

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

No IBIS in the M11 and how many M shooters 

I don't understand this IBIS thing (Not arguing with your post but truly don't understand). The Sony cameras aren't bigger than the M line. The Olympus line was smaller than the M. I imagine that it is possible to add IBIS into an M. I guess we will see.

 

[Kwesi]

9 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

It wasn't a dumb question; it was just addressed to someone who is honor bound to play dumb, at least on this particular topic. 😀  Way of the world. But as we are under no such obligation. Let's briefly review a few well known facts to offer a take on what I assume is an underlying fear that a far more compelling M is just barely over the horizon. 

What do we actually know? The M10-M/R and S3 were just introduced.  Most of us believe that all three share the same sensor architecture. We presume this was done to spread the cost of development. Going your own way on a new sensor architecture is serious business, especially for a comparatively small concern. Not something undertaken on a whim. Consider the previous generation M10 sensor remained state of the M art for 3.5 years. It continues to soldier on. The M240's sensor ruled the M roost for over 4 years and remained in production cameras as recently as the M-E intro'd last year.  Seven years+. Given that the heart of the two latest Ms is a brand new part, what on earth would lead anyone to believe that a significantly better photographic engine is a year away?  History and common sense suggest that this is the M sensor for the next few years at least.

So what else might be around the corner that actually would warrant holding off and waiting for an actual M11***?  IBIS? We already have heard that this isn't likely anytime soon. Why? Well, if nothing else, they just introduced a brand new non-IBIS sensor. More pixels...  oh yea... brand new sensor.  Better DR...  sorry repeating myself... brand new sensor. Better battery life? E-shutter? Upgrade to Maestro 3 or beyond? Internal AI engine doing...? Likely I'm missing something here. Just what is it that those bloviating over the supposed limited shelf life of the 10-R are expecting to utterly bury it anytime soon?  I'm genuinely perplexed as to exactly what that might be.

To echo Jono, none of this reasoning guarantees that an M11 wont be announced tomorrow. But likewise, there's no certainty that the sun will rise in the morning. Both assertions involve probabilities based on historical observation; one admittedly a bit more certain than the other. Regardless, none of this nonsense addresses the real reasons, if any, to prefer a 10-R over whatever you currently are shooting.  That can go either way for any number of reasons. What it does suggest, IMO, is that any decision shouldn't be influenced by thinking that there is a high probability of the 10-R being significantly outdone by another M version anytime soon.

*** If the M11 even debuts in this decade. As I've mentioned elsewhere,  AFAICT, the model designation Leica employs refers to the physical body, not the content stuffed there-in. This, IMO, is the reason the M10-M/R are not branded as the M11 and M11M despite the generational change from an imaging standpoint.  If it's the same body, it gets the same number. It's not entirely impossible that a significant packaging change is under a year away and the next camera will be called M11 as a result.  If so it will, of necessity, largely be an M10-R in a M11 body. In which case, I'm perfectly happy with my M11 in an M10 body.

 

Ok so here are the facts!😉

The sensor in the M10R will be used in the M11. 

The M11 will use the Maestro 3 Processor - Leica Marketing will try its best to convince us that this combo yields even better sensor performance.

Image quality wise, the difference between M10R and M11 will be negligible.

The M11 body will be ever so slightly different from the M10 body. Perhaps an integrated faux advance lever acting as a thumb rest.

Andreas Kaufman mentioned in the Hugh Brownstone interview that Leica sales have been hit very badly due to Covid related store closures - leading to excess inventory than projected for this time in the M10 life cycle.

The M10R sensor was introduced early to help reduce excess inventory. The R designation is not the beginning of a new trend.

The M 11 will be introduced in the next 12 months. M11P in the next 24 months.

What does this all mean for me? I have to wait 2 whole years for my next camera!😒

[dkmoore]

9 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Ok so here are the facts!😉

The sensor in the M10R will be used in the M11. 

The M11 will use the Maestro 3 Processor - Leica Marketing will try its best to convince us that this combo yields even better sensor performance.

Image quality wise, the difference between M10R and M11 will be negligible.

The M11 body will be ever so slightly different from the M10 body. Perhaps an integrated faux advance lever acting as a thumb rest.

Andreas Kaufman mentioned in the Hugh Brownstone interview that Leica sales have been hit very badly due to Covid related store closures - leading to excess inventory than projected for this time in the M10 life cycle.

The M10R sensor was introduced early to help reduce excess inventory. The R designation is not the beginning of a new trend.

The M 11 will be introduced in the next 12 months. M11P in the next 24 months.

What does this all mean for me? I have to wait 2 whole years for my next camera!😒

This would be bad! Even I wouldn't buy the new M11 if you are correct. lol 

 

[jonoslack]

55 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

I don't understand this IBIS thing (Not arguing with your post but truly don't understand). The Sony cameras aren't bigger than the M line. The Olympus line was smaller than the M. I imagine that it is possible to add IBIS into an M. I guess we will see.

 

Hi There

the problem is the distance between the ‘film’ plane - ie the front of the sensor, and the back of the LCD on the back of the camera - and it’s much bigger on the Sony and Olympus cameras. I guess it’s possible they’ll find a way to do it some day, but it pretty much means moving all the electronics at the back of the sensor away to allow for the IBIS.

[Rob L]

Said another way, the problem is the longer flange-focal distance ( distance from the mount to the sensor) of the Leica M vs mirrorless cameras. Sony E mount =18mm, Leica L Mount = 20mm etc. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance Leica M = 27.8 mm. Look down the throat of a Sony vs. Leica.

For me, I see very little need for IBIS with the lenses that I choose to use with Leica M.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Rob L

[jdlaing]

14 minutes ago, Rob L said:

Said another way, the problem is the longer flange-focal distance ( distance from the mount to the sensor) of the Leica M vs mirrorless cameras. Sony E mount =18mm, Leica L Mount = 20mm etc. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance Leica M = 27.8 mm. Look down the throat of a Sony vs. Leica.

For me, I see very little need for IBIS with the lenses that I choose to use with Leica M.

And the thickness of the package for a full frame sensor.

[jonoslack]

4 hours ago, Bikie John said:

You wish that Jono, and I entirely understand and would feel much the same. But do you think that the other musicians, and Neil's family and friends, care very much? It is a photo of their departed friend which can never be repeated, so it is loaded with meaning and value as it is.

We can just take comfort from knowing that the photos we make now will stand up better in a few years' time.

John

Hi John

Erm, well, yes, as someone is putting together a gallery of photos. But maybe Jaap’s suggestion of trying Topaz is the answer!

[bags27]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi John

Erm, well, yes, as someone is putting together a gallery of photos. But maybe Jaap’s suggestion of trying Topaz is the answer!

I am quite impressed by the combination. The AI really does work, pushing noise reduction (Topaz argues for noise reduction first, so that one does not then sharpen the noise) and sharpening to their aesthetic maximums without losing detail or creating overly sharp edges and artifacts. 

I posted some before and afters here:

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Erm, well, yes, as someone is putting together a gallery of photos. But maybe Jaap’s suggestion of trying Topaz is the answer!

If you try it and it is, let us know!

[Herr Barnack]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, harryzet said:

i usually expose correct and therefore dont need a leica m10-r

Well that's just a FINE attitude to have after all the trouble Leica went through to invent the M10R! 😄