New to Leica, should I go for M3, M4 or M5?

[Eric727]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi, I’m new here. I am using Canon DSLR and Nikon F3P film camera. I understand that a Leica camera won’t make me a better photographer, but I like the feel after tested the Leica camera at Leica store, and I love the experience of controlling light by myself. I started from DSLR then move to film, my F3 explore my vision of “how to exposure work”, but relying very minimum of the electronic parts inside my F3 (basically just a light meter).

With all the reasons (maybe excuses), I am decided to become one of the Leica member. Last week, I saw a good deal of 50mm f2 rigid, and my finger acted to quickly and accidentally make up the purchase, now it on the way. 
I hope I can have some of your suggestions here to help me to pick my first Leica to start my Leica journey.
 

Currently, I am considering M3, M4 and M5. Based on my search on the web, M3 is legendary camera, M4 is more modern, M5 is cheap & bulky.

is there anyone who used or owned these camera and probably can give some advise to me?

I planned to get one film Leica only, afterwards, I will invest into digital Leica.
 

Thank you very much.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Matlock]

I suspect you will get many answers to this but, first of all, do you require a metered camera (M5) or non metered?  I am a little puzzled when you describe the M5 as "cheap & Bulky". It is certainly larger than the other M series cameras but I would never describe it as cheap. The M5 is a camera that is either loved or hated but it is an extremely competent performer. I have an M5 and I use it a lot, certainly more than my M3, but that is my preference, others would say just the opposite. At the end of the day, the best bet would be to try and handle a selection of Leica Ms.

[Graham (G4FUJ)]

I wouldn't consider the M5 particularly bulky either.  Yes, a little larger than my M6, but not massively so.

[mann61]

M5 best M ever! I've also a M3 but it doesn't come close to the 5. As for cheap,I think you're wrong there . The rarity has pushed up prices.

[Eric727]

1 hour ago, Eric727 said:

Hi, I’m new here. I am using Canon DSLR and Nikon F3P film camera. I understand that a Leica camera won’t make me a better photographer, but I like the feel after tested the Leica camera at Leica store, and I love the experience of controlling light by myself. I started from DSLR then move to film, my F3 explore my vision of “how to exposure work”, but relying very minimum of the electronic parts inside my F3 (basically just a light meter).

With all the reasons (maybe excuses), I am decided to become one of the Leica member. Last week, I saw a good deal of 50mm f2 rigid, and my finger acted to quickly and accidentally make up the purchase, now it on the way. 
I hope I can have some of your suggestions here to help me to pick my first Leica to start my Leica journey.
 

Currently, I am considering M3, M4 and M5. Based on my search on the web, M3 is legendary camera, M4 is more modern, M5 is cheap & bulky.

is there anyone who used or owned these camera and probably can give some advise to me?

I planned to get one film Leica only, afterwards, I will invest into digital Leica.
 

Thank you very much.

Sorry to all.

no offended for M5, I mean, generally people perception on M5 is a lot larger, and it is a bit cheaper than M3 & M4.

 

[Eric727]

1 hour ago, Matlock said:

I suspect you will get many answers to this but, first of all, do you require a metered camera (M5) or non metered?  I am a little puzzled when you describe the M5 as "cheap & Bulky". It is certainly larger than the other M series cameras but I would never describe it as cheap. The M5 is a camera that is either loved or hated but it is an extremely competent performer. I have an M5 and I use it a lot, certainly more than my M3, but that is my preference, others would say just the opposite. At the end of the day, the best bet would be to try and handle a selection of Leica Ms.

Sorry, I mean the M5 is a bit larger and a bit cheaper than M3 & M4 with comparable conditions.

i do not need metering.

thanks

[Eric727]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 minutes ago, mann61 said:

M5 best M ever! I've also a M3 but it doesn't come close to the 5. As for cheap,I think you're wrong there . The rarity has pushed up prices.

Sorry, I mean it is a bit cheaper compared to similar conditions of M3 & M4.

[mann61]

There's a nice chrome M5 for sale in Berlin for 1395E. Leica didn't produce many chrome 5 so they are more expensive. 

[Gobert]

Are the M6 and M7 too modern?

[mmradman]

As OP doesn’t need metering the choice narrows to M3 and M4, however there are others non-metered cameras from that period like M2, also later M-A.

For OP the next question should be what RF magnification, 0.91 or 0.72, obviously both work well with 50mm lenses but one  can consider future lenses,  wide, mid-telephoto or both.

 

Edit; Except for M7 all later film M cameras can work without the battery and be meter-less, like M6 and MP. Also M5.  Getting early  vintage M3 from 1950s or early 1960, 60 years and counting, is potentially servicing issue , as much as mechanical cameras are built to last the RF optics degrade with time and varied storage over the decades by different users/owners. These things can be repaired but it takes time and perseverance.

Edited August 16, 2020 by mmradman

[Denys]

Hello Eric! This is typical of the Forum: you ask what you think is a straight-forward question and lots of responses widen the question up.  Those responses are well-meaning and thought-through so the process is worth following. Nine times out of ten you will be far more prepared to make a decision that you won’t regret. Plus - hopefully you ‘meet’ some great people! That said, I fear I cannot really help you here..  ..I’ve owned an M4-P (which I loved) but never even touched an M3 or an M5! I can see the sense in the responses above. Would you prefer a camera with metering or not? One factor that hasn’t been mentioned - yet! - is frame lines. My understanding is that the models you mention do not have the same frame lines in the viewfinder - worth some research into what lenses you intend to use. For that reason, I would choose an M2 over an M3. I prefer the lines of the M2 too - and don’t mind the lack of an automatic frame counter reset. One important aspect of buying these things mirrors closely buying classic cars. Condition is very important. You could buy a newer M4 that needs attention (perhaps, ironically, because it has very few shutter actuations - ‘fewer miles’) or an older M3 that has been looked after and performs just fine. Of course, a good Clean, Lubricate and Adjust can sort most things out and leave you with an almost-new camera. If it needs a CLA, factor that in with the purchase price. Speaking of purchase price, if you don’t get along with rangefinder, then you should get your money back if you sell the body; you might even make money, but others here are better able to advise than me. If I was to offer any advice it would be to buy from a shop that has a good reputation and offers a warranty.

Oh - and you may be right when you say you don’t expect to become a ‘better photographer’ by using a Leica rangefinder. Who can judge that (that you trust)? I’m willing to bet it will change your photography compared to using SLRs..   ..and (almost) willing to bet it will make you a happier photographer!

Good luck in your quest and it would be good to find out what you find..

[a.noctilux]

Hello Eric,

- some people who had never touch an M5 said it is large and ...ugly 😇

- some other just use this fine picture making machine (including me for some decadeslong happiness 😉)

- for sure if it's for you, only way is buy it, use it for some times, then judge by yourself to move on or not,

this is my only advice for all gear as asking questions here (or elsewhere) would NOT answer your questionings

[Mute-on]

More information already on on this topic than can be summarised in a few posts, but here is a start ... good luck

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311064-which-film-m-body/?tab=comments#comment-4003257

[Eric727]

5 hours ago, Eric727 said:

Hi, I’m new here. I am using Canon DSLR and Nikon F3P film camera. I understand that a Leica camera won’t make me a better photographer, but I like the feel after tested the Leica camera at Leica store, and I love the experience of controlling light by myself. I started from DSLR then move to film, my F3 explore my vision of “how to exposure work”, but relying very minimum of the electronic parts inside my F3 (basically just a light meter).

With all the reasons (maybe excuses), I am decided to become one of the Leica member. Last week, I saw a good deal of 50mm f2 rigid, and my finger acted to quickly and accidentally make up the purchase, now it on the way. 
I hope I can have some of your suggestions here to help me to pick my first Leica to start my Leica journey.
 

Currently, I am considering M3, M4 and M5. Based on my search on the web, M3 is legendary camera, M4 is more modern, M5 contain more electronic stuff..

is there anyone who used or owned these camera and probably can give some advise to me?

I planned to get one film Leica only, afterwards, I will invest into digital Leica.
 

Thank you very much.

 

[Eric727]

3 hours ago, mmradman said:

As OP doesn’t need metering the choice narrows to M3 and M4, however there are others non-metered cameras from that period like M2, also later M-A.

For OP the next question should be what RF magnification, 0.91 or 0.72, obviously both work well with 50mm lenses but one  can consider future lenses,  wide, mid-telephoto or both.

 

Edit; Except for M7 all later film M cameras can work without the battery and be meter-less, like M6 and MP. Also M5.  Getting early  vintage M3 from 1950s or early 1960, 60 years and counting, is potentially servicing issue , as much as mechanical cameras are built to last the RF optics degrade with time and varied storage over the decades by different users/owners. These things can be repaired but it takes time and perseverance.

 

3 hours ago, Denys said:

Hello Eric! This is typical of the Forum: you ask what you think is a straight-forward question and lots of responses widen the question up.  Those responses are well-meaning and thought-through so the process is worth following. Nine times out of ten you will be far more prepared to make a decision that you won’t regret. Plus - hopefully you ‘meet’ some great people! That said, I fear I cannot really help you here..  ..I’ve owned an M4-P (which I loved) but never even touched an M3 or an M5! I can see the sense in the responses above. Would you prefer a camera with metering or not? One factor that hasn’t been mentioned - yet! - is frame lines. My understanding is that the models you mention do not have the same frame lines in the viewfinder - worth some research into what lenses you intend to use. For that reason, I would choose an M2 over an M3. I prefer the lines of the M2 too - and don’t mind the lack of an automatic frame counter reset. One important aspect of buying these things mirrors closely buying classic cars. Condition is very important. You could buy a newer M4 that needs attention (perhaps, ironically, because it has very few shutter actuations - ‘fewer miles’) or an older M3 that has been looked after and performs just fine. Of course, a good Clean, Lubricate and Adjust can sort most things out and leave you with an almost-new camera. If it needs a CLA, factor that in with the purchase price. Speaking of purchase price, if you don’t get along with rangefinder, then you should get your money back if you sell the body; you might even make money, but others here are better able to advise than me. If I was to offer any advice it would be to buy from a shop that has a good reputation and offers a warranty.

Oh - and you may be right when you say you don’t expect to become a ‘better photographer’ by using a Leica rangefinder. Who can judge that (that you trust)? I’m willing to bet it will change your photography compared to using SLRs..   ..and (almost) willing to bet it will make you a happier photographer!

Good luck in your quest and it would be good to find out what you find..

Hi mmradman & Denys,

thanks for the valuable comments.

both of you has pointed out a very important issue, the frame line issue.

when I shooting DSLR, yes I used some zoom, but when I take street photograph, I stick with one lens, mostly 40mm from my Canon or 24mm or 50mm from my F3. That said, I could live with one lens if I want to since the Leica will be mainly used for my street photography and travel photography.

In fact, I also planned to purchase another digital Leica M, could be M9 or M10 it depends. So I am ok with the frame line issue.

i quite agreed with Denys about Leica could change our shooting style and make us all becoming happier photographers

since I decided to go full mechanical, I do not want to electronic device anymore, this mean, I am not thinking to use light meter, this might help to train myself to be more sensitive to light.

if there is a light meter in the body, just like my F3, I tends to rely on it most of the time. So it will be good if I go with no light meter body.

thanks

[Matlock]

20 minutes ago, Eric727 said:

Since I decided to go full mechanical, I do not want to electronic device anymore, this mean, I am not thinking to use light meter, this might help to train myself to be more sensitive to light.

if there is a light meter in the body, just like my F3, I tends to rely on it most of the time. So it will be good if I go with no light meter body.

thanks

Reading your comments I would have a look at a M4-P, but in the end only you can decide, see if you can have a look at one.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Matlock

[Eric727]

Just now, Matlock said:

Ready your comments I would have a look at a M4-P, but in the end only you can decide, see if you can have a look at one.

Thanks Matlock.

have you tried all these camera?

how you feel?

thanks

[Matlock]

6 minutes ago, Eric727 said:

Thanks Matlock.

have you tried all these camera?

how you feel?

thanks

Yes Eric, I have and I use a M4-P quite a lot. Also it has a wider range of frame lines than the M4 (or M2, M3). As I said, try to get hold of one to try, not always easy I know. My most used film Leica is my M7 but that does not fall into your requirement range.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ktmrider2]

If you like the 50, the M3 has the best viewfinder.  However, if you prefer the 35 or 28 FOV, then both your other choices are better.  Except for the M3 and a few rarer viewfinder magnifications in M6 and later, all M's had a .72 viewfinder magnification which first appeared in the M2.  The M2 has the most elegant viewfinder with frame lines for 35/50/90 while later cameras had 35/50/90/135 or even 28/35/50/75/90/135.  The M4P and later M's had the six frame lines and they appear in pairs which some (myself included) feel make a cluttered viewfinder experience.

Anything wider then 28 requires an aux viewfinder which fits in the hotshot.  Although the M2, M4, M5 and M4/2 do not have a 28 or 75, you can just use the entire viewfinder for the 28 FOV.  If you wear glasses you will have trouble seeing anything wider then the 35 frame lines.

M3, M2, M4, M4/2, and M4/P are essentially identical camera bodies with minor differences in film loading (M2 and M3 slower with spool), viewfinder frames, film rewinding (again M2 and M3 slower with knob), and you have to manually set the film counter on the M2 (takes about 2 seconds)..  All require aux viewfinder with lenses wider than 28 while the M3 requires and aux viewfinder with anything wider than 50.  I have owned all of them and the M2 is my favorite as either the 35 or 50 FOV is my favorite and the viewfinder is simply elegant.

The M5 is bigger but it has arguably the best TTL meter in any M camera.  Remember when it was introduced it represented over ten years of development by the Leitz team.  I would argue that it is the best shooter of all of them with the meter and the shutter speed available in the viewfinder.  Additionally it was the last camera Leitz made in the traditional sense.  Some Leitz fans did not like it because it was not a traditionally sized M body.

Honestly you can't go wrong with any of them.  You will be able to sell it for what you paid for it if the model you select is not for you.  Again, I think it comes down to your favorite focal length.  If you think you will stick to the 24/50, any of them will work.  The 24 will require an aux finder which will work on any body while the 50 is great on the M3 and almost as good on all the others with the .72 viewfinder.

[spydrxx]

Hi Eric - Most others have said what I'll comment on. If you can try each, you can make a better choice, as they are ergonomically and slightly functionally different. I began my journey with a friend's loaned M3 before deciding on a M4 which I used for over 40 years. I also tried an M6, but just couldn't get on with it. Eventually sold the M4 and came back with an M2. Since I'm primarily a 35mm guy, both the M2 and M4 are great choices. For the 50mm guy, it is hard to beat the M3. No matter which you decide on, factor in the price (~$200-250 USD) of a CLA by a competent professional to ensure everything is operating smoothly and accurately (see the list in the Historica section). Also give due consideration to both the magnification factor of the viewfinder and the eye relief. If you wear glasses, make sure to get the correct screw-in diopter for the eyepiece. Then enjoy your camera. Pairing it with your F3 should be a real joy!