M10-P or M10R

[Kwesi]

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21 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Thank you Scott - I was trying to be even handed, and I quite agree, the benefits in terms of image quality are the most important thing (not so much the 41mp - 24 was fine for me [I thought])

Generally speaking I get the first iteration of each Leica M upgrade (M9, M240, M10) and I just drool over the other variants, I was really intending to do the same with the M10, but the M10-R is enough of an upgrade to have shelled out again, and this is not any kind of whim - I've been running an M10-R test camera alongside my basic M10 for more than a year now, and I still wanted the M10-R!

If you're going to buy secondhand - of course it's worth looking at a basic M10 or an M10-P, but if you're going to buy new, get an M10-R, it will hold it's value for longer, and you'll know you made the right decision!

Good Luck!

Not sure I agree entirely with your last statement here (in bold). While the M10-R is a very good camera, its primary purpose is to provide a boost in sales and renew interest in the last of the M10 stock. once the M11 arrives (within a year), with same 40mp sensor, slightly different body style and improved electronics, there will be a rush to trade in the M10R for the new M11.

[dkmoore]

5 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Not sure I agree entirely with your last statement here (in bold). While the M10-R is a very good camera, its primary purpose is to provide a boost in sales and renew interest in the last of the M10 stock. once the M11 arrives (within a year), with same 40mp sensor, slightly different body style and improved electronics, there will be a rush to trade in the M10R for the new M11.

M11 will most likely not be out in 12 months. I'm thinking September-November 2022. 2 years to enjoy the M10R. But this is mostly speculation.

Edited August 16, 2020 by dkmoore

[Tailwagger]

9 hours ago, Kwesi said:

...once the M11 arrives (within a year), with same 40mp sensor, slightly different body style and improved electronics, there will be a rush to trade in the M10R for the new M11.

Perhaps, but in the meantime, I've already completed two projects, shooting 2k frames with the 10-R in a month.  Even if your time estimate is correct, I'll wind up with ~20k frames this year.  Assuming a 60% return when trading the 10-R, thats $.25 a frame for results which I prefer over my now departed M10. Totally worth it, AFAIC.  

[scott kirkpatrick]

Somebody remind me what the M11 will offer to pry the M10-R and M10-D out of my cold dead hands?  Just swapping in a Maestro 3 processor with its 4GB buffer?  BTLE for faster Fotos connection? I 'm not holding my breath.

[Tailwagger]

2 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Somebody remind me what the M11 will offer to pry the M10-R and M10-D out of my cold dead hands?  Just swapping in a Maestro 3 processor with its 4GB buffer?  BTLE for faster Fotos connection? I 'm not holding my breath.

Dunno... but I have faith that Leica will make it attractive. OTOH, I have little faith that we lay folk have any idea when an M11 will appear. Short of IBIS in a larger body or some radical rethink of the RF mechanism, I'd agree that its difficult to imagine what major improvements might appear in the near term. 

[anickpick]

I agree. A slightly different body style and a better processor won‘t cut it. IBIS (and an electronic shutter) would be a convincing argument for an upgrade though.

Edited August 16, 2020 by anickpick

[jonoslack]

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9 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Not sure I agree entirely with your last statement here (in bold). While the M10-R is a very good camera, its primary purpose is to provide a boost in sales and renew interest in the last of the M10 stock. once the M11 arrives (within a year), with same 40mp sensor, slightly different body style and improved electronics, there will be a rush to trade in the M10R for the new M11.

Well, I can't comment on your speculat ions, but assuming the M10-R is the last camera before the M11 (might not be I suppose), then it's very likely to hold it's value better than the previous iterations, Partly because it's the last, and partly because it is (in my opinion) notably the best of the M10 range. 

[M11 for me]

M11 will include photography by software . . .

[jonoslack]

1 minute ago, anickpick said:

I agree. A slightly different body style and a better processor won‘t cut it. IBIS would be a convincing argument for an upgrade though.

I think IBIS Is very unlikely, it would almost certainly make the camera fatter - and I think they've been there and realised it's the wrong place! Also, although it's a good selling point, I really don't have a problem with camera shake on the M10-R - the 1/2 focal length on the Auto ISO settings and the good high ISO seems to me to do the business. 

An electronic shutter though, that might be useful

[Chaemono]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

Somebody remind me what the M11 will offer to pry the M10-R and M10-D out of my cold dead hands?  Just swapping in a Maestro 3 processor with its 4GB buffer?  BTLE for faster Fotos connection? I 'm not holding my breath.

You’ll be the first one to exclaim that you can’t wait to get your hands on one, I bet. 

vor 19 Minuten schrieb M10 for me:

M11 will include photography by software . . .

AI and computational photography. Interesting. How about speech recognition?

vor 16 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

I think IBIS Is very unlikely, it would almost certainly make the camera fatter - and I think they've been there and realised it's the wrong place!

It didn’t make the SL2 fatter, did it? Hi res sensors need IBIS, in my shaky hands, at least.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Chaemono

[jonoslack]

17 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

It didn’t make the SL2 fatter, did it? Hi res sensors need IBIS, in my shaky hands, at least.

But thinness wasn't a defining feature of the SL - and anyway, the SL2 is fatter than the M10! Of course, they might manage, but that's not what I understood

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

But thinness wasn't a defining feature of the SL - and anyway, the SL2 is fatter than the M10! Of course, they might manage, but that's not what I understood

The difference in ‘fatness’ is 3.5 millimeters. This could be overcome in three years of progress in miniaturization, I hope.

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Chaemono:

AI and computational photography. Interesting. How about speech recognition?

Cars have it; phones have it.

M12 might have it.

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

But thinness wasn't a defining feature of the SL - and anyway, the SL2 is fatter than the M10! Of course, they might manage, but that's not what I understood

Did we not say a few months ago that it was not possible to put a 40Mpix sensor into an M? Absolutely not possible and not needed either. And now we have it . . .

[jdlaing]

Who is we?

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, M10 for me said:

Did we not say a few months ago that it was not possible to put a 40Mpix sensor into an M? Absolutely not possible and not needed either. And now we have it . . .

That's one thing I didn't hear.  I think current design limitations have more to do with getting the heat out of moving those 40+ megapixels in and out of the buffer 5 or more times a second.  And from the little that  I understand about IBIS, it does not improve the thermal contact between the image sensor and the camera body to have it suspended in the air.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

That's one thing I didn't hear.  I think current design limitations have more to do with getting the heat out of moving those 40+ megapixels in and out of the buffer 5 or more times a second.  And from the little that  I understand about IBIS, it does not improve the thermal contact between the image sensor and the camera body to have it suspended in the air.

The engine and processing chips that are part of the ibis assembly raise the heat of the sensor block the more they are used over a period of image captures. The longer you use it more noise is generated. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by jdlaing

[dkmoore]

So far I’m very impressed with the M10R. I suspect m, because of what has been said above, that the M11 is far off because there really isn’t much to change. 
 

The only boxes that haven’t been checked for me are:

1. impenetrable rangefinder with some sort of focus patch alignment alert (lights up green). 
 

2. IBIS. 
 

3. faster or electronic shutter for higher speeds. 
 

If one or all are missing I’ll still probably be an early adopter of whatever comes next but I think those are the most important changes that could be implemented to make a “better camera.” (For me)

Edited August 16, 2020 by dkmoore

[jdlaing]

IBIS is a crutch and not necessary on an M. 
Faster shutter is not good on an M. It was tried and reduced.

Focus confirmation is and should be by eye with. O extra electronics to muck up the works.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Chaemono]

We‘re at the end of the M road then.