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M10-P or M10R


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Here is a wacky thought - make Leica Ms more affordable to younger people perhaps through a healthy discount on refurbished older models - This would groom the next generation and perhaps eliminate the need for IBIS since they have rock steady hands. 😀

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My understanding is that IBIS is a method of moving the sensor inside your camera in order to compensate for the camera movement. The camera has built-in accelerometers and gyroscopes to measure lateral motion or rotational movement to introduce stabilization (horizontal, vertical, yaw, pitch, and roll).

IBIS is introduced by suitable mounting methods that today take up space in-front or behind the sensor.

However there could be alternative mounting methods, say 'edge mounting' that could free up valuable real estate in the areas needed most.

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5 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

The flaw in your argument about electronics getting small is geometry.  It's true that circuits in the plane of the silicon get closer together, but IBIS needs to leave air around the chip, in order to cancel movements due to pitch and yaw.  Only roll  and x and y displacements are cancelled by an in-plane correction.  Olympus, when the technology was new, used to show a video of the chip motions that are required by the standard displacement test.  It would make you a bit seasick, and you can see why the chip needs space to move around. So to keep the lens-to-image spacing constant, the front of the lens mount would have to be pushed further forward by several mm.  I wonder if that is possible with the M rangefinder cam and mount flanges.

Putting more electro-mechanical stuff in an M body seems like a difficult challenge. However, they might be able to accomplish the same result computationally. I'm pretty sure there's enough room to fit the inertial sensors which detect movement (probably already there in the M10-P for the electronic level). Perhaps motion blur could be removed in camera if there's enough CPU, or they could include inertial metadata alongside the image(s) for post processing to deal with.

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If the improvements to DR are as significant as claimed,  an organic sensor might be able to offer roughly the same number of additional stops as current IBIS systems with none of the side effects.  Given Leica's association with Panasonic and a reticence to go back to an M2xx sized body, this strikes me as the more likely path going forward. 

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9 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

The flaw in your argument about electronics getting small is geometry.  It's true that circuits in the plane of the silicon get closer together, but IBIS needs to leave air around the chip, in order to cancel movements due to pitch and yaw.  Only roll  and x and y displacements are cancelled by an in-plane correction.  Olympus, when the technology was new, used to show a video of the chip motions that are required by the standard displacement test.  It would make you a bit seasick, and you can see why the chip needs space to move around. So to keep the lens-to-image spacing constant, the front of the lens mount would have to be pushed further forward by several mm.  I wonder if that is possible with the M rangefinder cam and mount flanges.

Even back in the days of the M8, the lens mount protruded from the front of the camera by 1-2mm where on a film M, it was essentially flush. That's where some of the extra space comes from and in the M10, the amount is perhaps even a little more. The issue as explained to me by someone on the Leica stand in Photokina 2006 was that the geometry of the rangefinder coupling changes and we know that the end result was not great on the M8 and M9 - I am sure we all remember the threads of people adjusting their rangefinder rollers and finding it a very frustrating process. Just when you thought you had it right, it turned out not to be...

Solved by a rethink with the M240 where there was a marked improvement in precision but I expect moving the mount still further forewards would be difficult, especially as there is paralax correction happening as well. At the end of the day though, the displacement of the roller contact point relative to the lens flange translates to a rotation of the rangefinder telescope. It's a wonder it works as well as it does...

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7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I’m simply trying to elicit more responses that I can make fun of when the M11 is announced. 😂

I suppose it's important to save for the future, but I'd point out that we've already banked thousands of posts, not to mention all those previous gen speculations leading up to the M10 itself.  What with the demise of said camera, all those offenses grow rather ripe, threatening to exceed the statute of bad take limitations. It would be a shame if the most egregious were able to slink silently away unrecognized. It's well past time to briefly... very briefly... laud the few of vision and then unceasingly... a hundred pages or more... excoriate all false prophets.

As the moment is passing,  I therefore call upon you, Don Chaemono, to seek them out!  Shine the light of justice upon those who would mislead our community.  Slash a W on their chest branding them with the mark of Worro, the upside down M, a sign of the people's justice.  All who unintentionally seek to deceive shall learn that such take crimes, no matter where or when they might be found, shall never escape the ridicule they so justly deserve. 

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17 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Here is a wacky thought - make Leica Ms more affordable to younger people perhaps through a healthy discount on refurbished older models - This would groom the next generation and perhaps eliminate the need for IBIS since they have rock steady hands. 😀

I think that younger generations will not look at camera's anymore, let alone Leica's, cell phones are closing. 

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After millennia of human progress we still have advocates of Flat Earth, anti-vaccination, etc, etc.  We seem to be more enlightened here, several recent posts reveal M user is open to the idea of sensor advancement that may go beyond what we currently understand to be classic IBIS setup.  Time will tell.

History of Leica RF is history of photographic milestones, not all of them complimentary to the brand. M3 introduced bayonet and combined viewer and RF.  Two decades later M5 tried to introduce different body style, it was rejected as buying audience didn't like body, or perhaps it was built in meter, that was than.  We live in digital sensor age today and we can be sure that sensor improvement race will continue, sometimes MP and sometimes general improvements in electronics.  Full frame went form 18 to 24 and now 40, few seasoned users will claim that they can produce sharp and in focus image with the finest lenses but the larger target audience would expect cameras in their own hands to deliver sharp images with the best compact lenses Leica has to offer.   

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Re stabilization...I don't know if this is typical or was just a brand-specific or camera-specific  issue but I ran across it fairly recently with one of my other cameras (all the bells and whistles), which has stabilization.

Anyway, a few months ago, when I returned to the Leica fold after 15 years of absence, I was taking some test shots on a tripod to check rangefinder calibration on my just-acquired Ebay M10. For the heck of it I brought out my autofocus camera and shot the same pics at the same relative distance so images were the same size.  Enlarging the images, I saw that they seemed a bit soft.  I'll skip any further wordiness and get to the point.  I discovered that with stabilization OFF, the images were tack-sharp.  With it ON, they were slightly soft in comparison.  Again, these were tripod-mounted pics of detailed surfaces for test purposes.

I have no idea if this is typical of stabilization, a quirk of the system on the particular brand/model, or a fault in the camera hardware/firmware but it was quite apparent in that specific situation.

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

I have no idea if this is typical of stabilization, a quirk of the system on the particular brand/model, or a fault in the camera hardware/firmware but it was quite apparent in that specific situation.

This is typical. One description of the issue is here.

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AHA!  Good to know that the camera isn't 'broken!' :) As pointed out, that info is probably in the owners manual but I can't bring myself to actually read a 100+ page camera manual - of which 1/3 of the pages seem to have warnings about some danger or another...like I'm going to electrocute myself with a camera battery?  :rolleyes: 

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2 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

AHA!  Good to know that the camera isn't 'broken!' :) As pointed out, that info is probably in the owners manual but I can't bring myself to actually read a 100+ page camera manual - of which 1/3 of the pages seem to have warnings about some danger or another...like I'm going to electrocute myself with a camera battery?  :rolleyes: 

You probably wound't do yourself much good if you swallowed it :)

A bit more seriously, Li-Ion batteries are known to cause problems if they short-circuit - there is a lot of energy in there and if they manage to set themselves on fire they burn extremely hot. But yes, I know what you mean about all the elf 'n' safety stuff being rather over the top.

John

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Well I think the OP was regarding the choice between keeping or buying the M10-P or going for the M10-R, so here's my two cents worth:

First I have the M10-P, this was the result of going for Leica's upgrading programme for the regular M10 and I had that done at Wetzlar earlier this year even though I was well aware that the M10-R with it's higher mp sensor was on it's way. This may seem to have been a dumb move to some but for me it's fine because for now because I do not see the need for the M10-R in my kit. It's a noble uptick of the M10 line for certain and not to say that I will rule out ever wanting to go for the M10-R later, but for now the 24mp of my 10-P and the 10-D are all I need. If Leica would ever offer the same upgrade from a P to an R, then that might, might, trigger the move, but for now in regards to the colour sensor I am happy with the P, and here's why.

I do have the M10-M, ( and the never to be sold MM9......Hmm, will I have to eat those words? ), and the 10M is a camera that pleases me the more I use it, the extra mp's and it's sensor extends enormously what I wish to do in my personal B&W imaging which is the majority of that work, but the size of the files does give me pause if I were, say, to add a M10-R to the stable. There's a choke-point for my Macs when I ingest the 10M's files, not seriously so but it is there particularly with my favourite travel MBP Air 11". If I was a shooter that shot hundreds of images in a day's outing, ( I'm not...very far from it ), then I could see that adding a M10-R would more than likely mean upgrading my Macs too to be able to handle the size of the files plus the storage and that greatly increases the cost of making a camera upgrade that for right now I don't feel is an necessary one for me.

I also love the M10-D, dubbed by me as Leica's "orphan M" because of the way it's been dumped firmware-wise, but the camera continues to delight in it's usage and again the files have proven to be more than good enough for my use as are of course the 10-P's files as they are from the same sensor. Both cameras enable me to print easily to full A2 size even with the necessary cropping that goes with pretty much every M image I shoot, no complaints there.......and I have rarely had any highlight problems with either camera, I guess my normal slight underexposure has something to do with that, but again even with a M10-R I'd likely underexpose a tad too.

So, for what it's worth there's my "M10-P or M10-R" response, for now I'm happy sticking where I am and have little present reason to upgrade, ( though GAS did bubble to the surface last month when I bought a new MA, but that's another story ), whilst applauding Leica's continuing innovations with the M line, long may it continue.

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On 8/23/2020 at 1:17 PM, petermullett said:

Well I think the OP was regarding the choice between keeping or buying the M10-P or going for the M10-R, so here's my two cents worth:

First I have the M10-P, this was the result of going for Leica's upgrading programme for the regular M10 and I had that done at Wetzlar earlier this year even though I was well aware that the M10-R with it's higher mp sensor was on it's way. This may seem to have been a dumb move to some but for me it's fine because for now because I do not see the need for the M10-R in my kit. It's a noble uptick of the M10 line for certain and not to say that I will rule out ever wanting to go for the M10-R later, but for now the 24mp of my 10-P and the 10-D are all I need. If Leica would ever offer the same upgrade from a P to an R, then that might, might, trigger the move, but for now in regards to the colour sensor I am happy with the P, and here's why.

I do have the M10-M, ( and the never to be sold MM9......Hmm, will I have to eat those words? ), and the 10M is a camera that pleases me the more I use it, the extra mp's and it's sensor extends enormously what I wish to do in my personal B&W imaging which is the majority of that work, but the size of the files does give me pause if I were, say, to add a M10-R to the stable. There's a choke-point for my Macs when I ingest the 10M's files, not seriously so but it is there particularly with my favourite travel MBP Air 11". If I was a shooter that shot hundreds of images in a day's outing, ( I'm not...very far from it ), then I could see that adding a M10-R would more than likely mean upgrading my Macs too to be able to handle the size of the files plus the storage and that greatly increases the cost of making a camera upgrade that for right now I don't feel is an necessary one for me.

I also love the M10-D, dubbed by me as Leica's "orphan M" because of the way it's been dumped firmware-wise, but the camera continues to delight in it's usage and again the files have proven to be more than good enough for my use as are of course the 10-P's files as they are from the same sensor. Both cameras enable me to print easily to full A2 size even with the necessary cropping that goes with pretty much every M image I shoot, no complaints there.......and I have rarely had any highlight problems with either camera, I guess my normal slight underexposure has something to do with that, but again even with a M10-R I'd likely underexpose a tad too.

So, for what it's worth there's my "M10-P or M10-R" response, for now I'm happy sticking where I am and have little present reason to upgrade, ( though GAS did bubble to the surface last month when I bought a new MA, but that's another story ), whilst applauding Leica's continuing innovations with the M line, long may it continue.

I also have the M10-P and the M10-D. I thought the M10-P was the best Leica I'd ever shot and then I got hold of the M10-D which is my 'never to be sold' camera. Both cameras are amazing and I recently took an M10-R out for a day to test and compare. 

40MP vs 24MP that's been done to death. I'm not interested in 16min exposures either, so here are my completely impartial observations:

1. It might have been the excellent light that day, but I took a series of outdoor shots using a combo of Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 which I was also testing for the first time and my trusty 50mm summilux. I shot a mix of landscape, street & arty inner city shots across a river where I live. The images seemed more punchy than usual which I really liked, how much of that was the new lens, I'm not sure. The extra resolution seemed to make the images sharper with high contrast, but I don't think it would take much in PP to get the same effect from the M10-P or -D. I will go back and re-shoot objectively with my M10-D when lighting conditions are similar to conclude.

2. The M10-P or the M10-D feel and look a bit special, I love the omission of the red-dot on the front and replacement for a screw head and the beautiful engraving on the top, also the high quality metal hot-shoe cover you get with both those cameras. The M10-R was chrome finish version which I like and would be my choice, but it somehow felt slightly cheaper and less classy than my P or D model and the plastic hotshoe cover felt really cheap and nasty for such an expensive camera, though I'd be less worried about losing it than one of mine. Minor and very subjective difference, but a difference none the less and a negative one in this case for me.

3. Finally, I shot around 50 images and before handing the camera back to my friendly Leica Dealer, I used Leica Fotos to upload the images to my iPad which I always do on my other cameras, even at home unless a big shoot. I really like the feature and often sit in a coffee shop doing this with the camera nicely away in my bag but wirelessly downloading to my iPad and editing in LR CC. Wow... it took forever to download the images... like 30-40 minutes or something silly, taking 25% off the battery !! Yikes... that was a shocker. I'd have done that in half the time on my cameras. 50 images was a lot to be downloading and normally for that many, I'd use a card reader, but not if I was working in a coffee shop, I'd definitely use wireless. Not an absolute show-stopper but a big negative for me. If you like using Leica Fotos which I do, then you'll be in for a shock downloading any more than a small number of images from the M10-R. Better carry some spare batteries or a card reader for that, or you'll be drinking a lot of coffee.

Those are my key observations.The M10-R is an excellent camera which I'm still considering, the resolution and punchiness of the images is astounding. I bought the Tri-Elmar on the day, but not the M10-R, not yet anyway. I wonder if they'll give the M10-R the 'P' treatment.. that would be nice.

 

 

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20 hours ago, 52K said:

I also have the M10-P and the M10-D. I thought the M10-P was the best Leica I'd ever shot and then I got hold of the M10-D which is my 'never to be sold' camera. Both cameras are amazing and I recently took an M10-R out for a day to test and compare. 

40MP vs 24MP that's been done to death. I'm not interested in 16min exposures either, so here are my completely impartial observations:

1. It might have been the excellent light that day, but I took a series of outdoor shots using a combo of Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 which I was also testing for the first time and my trusty 50mm summilux. I shot a mix of landscape, street & arty inner city shots across a river where I live. The images seemed more punchy than usual which I really liked, how much of that was the new lens, I'm not sure. The extra resolution seemed to make the images sharper with high contrast, but I don't think it would take much in PP to get the same effect from the M10-P or -D. I will go back and re-shoot objectively with my M10-D when lighting conditions are similar to conclude.

2. The M10-P or the M10-D feel and look a bit special, I love the omission of the red-dot on the front and replacement for a screw head and the beautiful engraving on the top, also the high quality metal hot-shoe cover you get with both those cameras. The M10-R was chrome finish version which I like and would be my choice, but it somehow felt slightly cheaper and less classy than my P or D model and the plastic hotshoe cover felt really cheap and nasty for such an expensive camera, though I'd be less worried about losing it than one of mine. Minor and very subjective difference, but a difference none the less and a negative one in this case for me.

3. Finally, I shot around 50 images and before handing the camera back to my friendly Leica Dealer, I used Leica Fotos to upload the images to my iPad which I always do on my other cameras, even at home unless a big shoot. I really like the feature and often sit in a coffee shop doing this with the camera nicely away in my bag but wirelessly downloading to my iPad and editing in LR CC. Wow... it took forever to download the images... like 30-40 minutes or something silly, taking 25% off the battery !! Yikes... that was a shocker. I'd have done that in half the time on my cameras. 50 images was a lot to be downloading and normally for that many, I'd use a card reader, but not if I was working in a coffee shop, I'd definitely use wireless. Not an absolute show-stopper but a big negative for me. If you like using Leica Fotos which I do, then you'll be in for a shock downloading any more than a small number of images from the M10-R. Better carry some spare batteries or a card reader for that, or you'll be drinking a lot of coffee.

Those are my key observations.The M10-R is an excellent camera which I'm still considering, the resolution and punchiness of the images is astounding. I bought the Tri-Elmar on the day, but not the M10-R, not yet anyway. I wonder if they'll give the M10-R the 'P' treatment.. that would be nice.

 

 

I'm more curious about your M10-D. Why is it your favourite camera now ? And how do you decide to take out your P or your D? 

I was considering adding the D to my P too, but I'm having troubles justifying two M bodies... 

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On 1/17/2021 at 3:49 AM, astrostl said:

FWIW, modern iPads are compatible with many small SD readers.

Yup, you’re right. I have a USB-C card reader which I use too and it would certainly get round the large-file problem. I just like using the wireless feature for a couple of reasons; 1) I don’t have to keep taking in and out the memory card, both the card and the socket on the camera have a finite number of insertions/removals probably a bit OTT, and 2) wireless is very convenient, even with the camera in the bag. In some situations it’s useful, more so if you’re on a job. The card-reader option is however a valuable and reliable back-up to this.

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On 1/17/2021 at 11:18 PM, Steven said:

I'm more curious about your M10-D. Why is it your favourite camera now ? And how do you decide to take out your P or your D? 

I was considering adding the D to my P too, but I'm having troubles justifying two M bodies... 

Hi Steven,

It’s a very subjective thing and not everyone will agree so I express just my own humble opinion. 

I love the M10-D because it forces me to think like the professional photographer I was. I say was, because nowadays I do it mostly for fun although I do still take pro commissions. Before I’ve taken the photo, I’m already thinking about ISO, what aperture I’d like to use, and planning the exposure in my head. I can of course use the light meter, but it makes me treat it like a film camera (like my M4) without a light-meter and also to really think about how I frame my shots. I do have an EVF which I may use to check/confirm how the photo will come out (exposure), particularly in difficult lighting but this is only to ‘verify’ that I’ve already worked it out in my head. I love that (without the EVF), which it mostly is by the way, the battery lasts as long as my old M240, no other M10 can make that claim. I love the fact that I can throw it (not literally) in my tank bag on my motorbike and not worry about a screen getting scratched or damaged (though I take good care of my kit), but mostly I love how it allows me to follow my passion of street photography using stuff like zone-focussing but with the anonymity of a film camera... people actually think it’s a film camera. When people ask to see a photo, I explain that when I’ve processed them, (I’m not lying about that), I will happily send them a copy. I love the thumb-rest... it really works well, and finally I love that it’s possibly one of the most controversial Leica M cameras ever made... some people hate it, but I love it.  If you’re even thinking about getting one, do it... you’ll love it and you’ll have no problem selling it if you decide it’s not for you. It’s a very rare camera, you don’t see many come up second hand and I think it will be one of the great collectibles in time. 

You asked how I decide whether to take the D or the P... It’s nearly always the D. If I need a backup (pro-shoot) I’ll take the P as the primary and the D as the backup, or second lens option at the ready.  If I’m messing about indoors, or even outdoors with a new lens which I’m always trying new stuff... I’ll use the P because I can check on the screen very quickly how I’m getting on, without the need to wireless connect, which also is heavy on the battery. 

I can’t not have a 2nd body, both being M10s means they share the same battery plus I have a floating spare. The M10-D is basically an M10-P with no screen. It has the same identical looks (front and top) with nice engraving, the super-quiet shutter and nice quality finishing touches like the metal hot-shoe protector. 

I used the word ‘love’ in that a lot... that’s how I feel about the M10-D. When I first bought my M10-P I always thought the M10-D would make the perfect companion. I wasn’t wrong and never thought I’d be lucky enough to find a mint (as new) one because they’d stopped being made. 

I hope that answers your question.

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2 hours ago, 52K said:

Hi Steven,

It’s a very subjective thing and not everyone will agree so I express just my own humble opinion. 

I love the M10-D because it forces me to think like the professional photographer I was. I say was, because nowadays I do it mostly for fun although I do still take pro commissions. Before I’ve taken the photo, I’m already thinking about ISO, what aperture I’d like to use, and planning the exposure in my head. I can of course use the light meter, but it makes me treat it like a film camera (like my M4) without a light-meter and also to really think about how I frame my shots. I do have an EVF which I may use to check/confirm how the photo will come out (exposure), particularly in difficult lighting but this is only to ‘verify’ that I’ve already worked it out in my head. I love that (without the EVF), which it mostly is by the way, the battery lasts as long as my old M240, no other M10 can make that claim. I love the fact that I can throw it (not literally) in my tank bag on my motorbike and not worry about a screen getting scratched or damaged (though I take good care of my kit), but mostly I love how it allows me to follow my passion of street photography using stuff like zone-focussing but with the anonymity of a film camera... people actually think it’s a film camera. When people ask to see a photo, I explain that when I’ve processed them, (I’m not lying about that), I will happily send them a copy. I love the thumb-rest... it really works well, and finally I love that it’s possibly one of the most controversial Leica M cameras ever made... some people hate it, but I love it.  If you’re even thinking about getting one, do it... you’ll love it and you’ll have no problem selling it if you decide it’s not for you. It’s a very rare camera, you don’t see many come up second hand and I think it will be one of the great collectibles in time. 

You asked how I decide whether to take the D or the P... It’s nearly always the D. If I need a backup (pro-shoot) I’ll take the P as the primary and the D as the backup, or second lens option at the ready.  If I’m messing about indoors, or even outdoors with a new lens which I’m always trying new stuff... I’ll use the P because I can check on the screen very quickly how I’m getting on, without the need to wireless connect, which also is heavy on the battery. 

I can’t not have a 2nd body, both being M10s means they share the same battery plus I have a floating spare. The M10-D is basically an M10-P with no screen. It has the same identical looks (front and top) with nice engraving, the super-quiet shutter and nice quality finishing touches like the metal hot-shoe protector. 

I used the word ‘love’ in that a lot... that’s how I feel about the M10-D. When I first bought my M10-P I always thought the M10-D would make the perfect companion. I wasn’t wrong and never thought I’d be lucky enough to find a mint (as new) one because they’d stopped being made. 

I hope that answers your question.

You have done more than that. You have convinced me to get it. Thank you. 

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