M10-P or M10R

[Pixeleater]

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Here is a link to a new You Tube video about Leitz-Park. @ 6:50 it talks about the printed photograph.

 

https://youtu.be/_8_aVvBIq2E

Edited March 18, 2021 by Pixeleater

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[tom0511]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Steven:

Told you. I had my my max shutter speed set to 1/30th on my M10P. This is never a problem. The minimum at night on the R was 1/60th, and in the day 1/250th. 

Now again, it might work for some. For my shooting style, it was not an option. 

Hi Steven,

some m10r-shots with 50mm 1/25 were (at 100% zoom) somewhat blurred, but some also came out fine. I asume with a 35mm or even 28mm 1/30 should not be a problem.

I am not  concerned and I am not sure if this is any better or worse than a M10. With a Monochrom you have a big ISO advantage and high pixel sharpness, so it is clear that it has advantages in low light.

 

[augustwest100]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

I really really want to get into printing. The only issue is that I don't know what to do with the prints. With the jpeg files, I can post them online. With the prints, not sure I'll have any use. Anyway, back to M10P vs M10R.....

Once you print them, you can very carefully use your camera on your phone to take a digital picture of the prints, and then you can conveniently share them online 😂

Alternatively, you can give small prints out to friends and family - I remember in the old film days, I used to give away my duplicate darkroom images (it took ALOT of prints to finally get it right back then!) To me, they were the “leftover” prints at first, but then I saw how much joy they brought to people. I once went to visit a friend and my photo was framed on their wall!

Donate one to your local library.

Give them out to health care workers.

I know someone who keeps his current photography project on his dining room wall - a way to really let the project sink in, and also be surrounded by things that make you feel good.

Oh, boy, the possibilities are endless.

Uh oh...I’ve gone and inspired myself out of my laziness again, so thank you!

[Guest]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:53 PM, hdmesa said:

M10-R replacement arrived today for the exchange of the M10-P Reporter (shredding Kevlar issue). Wow, what a difference. Love the 40mp resolution. Photos are razor sharp with the 50 Summicron-M.

As long as you bump up Auto ISO max and set the shutter speed equation to the next higher setting, there should be no issues getting sharp shots unless you're mashing on the shutter button with a caffeine-induced jackhammer finger. The advice I read on this forum to make sure and flat-pad-of-the-finger-slowly-push the shutter button versus fingertip-straight-down makes a HUGE difference! But anyway, the M default max of ISO 1600 plus the default shutter speed equation are a recipe for blurred shots.

Rangefinder is spot on for focus at f2 on the 50 Summicron-M. Focus peaking was fine on the M10-P, but it seems to get in the way of seeing perfect focus at 40mp and turning it off was a big improvement, at least for wide open at close distance.

This is my first black M, and the finish surprised me in a good way. It's much softer/matte in look and feel, and it's much more pleasing than the finish on the Q2M (which is nice, but a bit boring and smooth by comparison). I was also pleasantly surprised with how flat the Leica red dot was. Not sure why, but in my mind, I've always perceived the red dot in photos as being slightly dome-shaped, like a ladybug soft shutter release button, which it is not 😂

The M10-R's exposure metering combined with the gamma curve Leica applies to the M10-R is so much better than the M10/P. Not having to remember to not kill the highlights is one less thing to get in the way of the simplified user experience of the M. Maybe some see the M as more complicated, something that you have to give more thought to, but I kind of see it the opposite way, especially with the R. I grew up using film cameras with the exact same controls, so this camera seems simple to me versus using my R5, which can often feel like playing Star Trek 3D chess with a Vulcan.

I haven't shot enough with the M10-R to fully know what the image character/tonality/color-signature will be, but the first few SOOC shots (with JPEG sharpness and saturation set to max) look very close to my Canon R5 images, which I like very much (especially considering that color is being delivered by the older design of the 50 Summicron-M).

I think the M10-R with a 21/50/90 combo just might be my own personal holy grail for a small, lightweight landscape field kit.

My advice for anyone considering both is go straight to the R and never look back. If you get blurred shots on the R, you simply need to raise your shutter speed and/or improve your shooting technique. If you already have the M10/M10-P, I would still wait for the M11, especially if an improved Visoflex is coming that will only work with the M11.

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So every lens is in effect a stop slower with the M10R? 

[SoarFM]

From a trusted reviewer, Jono Slack:

“...the sensor in the M10-R isn’t just higher resolution, it’s much better than the sensor in all the other colour M10 variants. It has better high ISO, more Dynamic Range, nicer noise characteristics and the raw files are much nicer to work with in post processing...”

And in exchange you bump up the min shutter speed by 1 stop. 

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

So every lens is in effect a stop slower with the M10R? 

The M10-R cannot alter reality.

For what it's worth, I was never good at getting steady shots even at 24mp, so maybe rent or try one for yourself and see what you think.

[ravinj]

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9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Heirs are far more likely to shuffle through your  prints (with appreciated notations) than through your digital archives, if you care about that sort of thing.  And while you’re here, people generally appreciate and remember a fine photo and well crafted print more than they do many other forgettable gifts or purchases. (I know there are walls and tables in France; I’ve seen them.) In addition, portfolio print binders can be a good way to organize projects and/or sort work, in a more tangible way than some online collection.  Books, too.

Jeff

+1. My family still enjoys flipping through albums of pictures taken decades ago. It is fun to watch my daughter with her grandma, together looking at Kodachrome prints and laughing hysterically at childhood photos. Can't say the same about digital pictures, no matter how high the resolution or how clean at ISO 25,000.

[tom0511]

 

vor 8 Stunden schrieb SoarFM:

From a trusted reviewer, Jono Slack:

“...the sensor in the M10-R isn’t just higher resolution, it’s much better than the sensor in all the other colour M10 variants. It has better high ISO, more Dynamic Range, nicer noise characteristics and the raw files are much nicer to work with in post processing...”

And in exchange you bump up the min shutter speed by 1 stop. 

Well, the lenses I use on the M are not slowish zooms with f4.0-5.6. I mainly use SUmmicrons and Summilux, and they are fully usable wide open. So even inside with lower light I usually do not have to go to high in ISO. So for my intended use I am totally fine with the low light capabilities. Plus low light is not the main and only part of my photography. I am not sure though that m10r high ISO is any better than M10.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Steven said:

Also, isn't that number a little ridiculous compared to the only photo sharing industry ?! 🤪

Steven you really can be a PITA, but I guess you know that.

Printing one's work has little or no value seems to be your point of view? Huh.

 

Well you are wrong, it is immensely valuable and it is a beneficial step in the learning and refining of the craft, but I suspect that you don’t want to spare the time to do that. I do realise that I’m howling at the moon against your opinion and perhaps you don’t have the make up to be able to invest the time and energy into this step, but if you ever change your mind you might find it valuable.

 

Throwing one’s images up on various online websites is easy to do and it has an air of instant gratification that is too often sought after by those that do post, “likes"….but it’s all vapour.

Keeping images, and keeping our written word too, solely in the digital world is ignoring the fact that one hiccup could erase everything, in a small way I am certain this has happened to many of us when a hard drive suddenly goes wonky taking with it for ever memories and work……and yes I know about back-up regimes, but they exist primarily because the whole system is fragile in the first place, built on sand, and failure is part of the bargain one makes if that’s where your files are stored. My “old” photographs, some going back to the 1960’s, still exist because of the medium that I used to create them, 50 years on from now I suspect it will be difficult to say the same with what we produce, and how we produce our words and images today.

 

Viewing photographs on screen is just a review process for me and I suspect for others too who want to put in the time to improve their skills. Making a print isn’t a quick process, it wasn’t so in darkroom days, ( they still exist and I must acknowledge that ), it’s a craft like most others connected to photography, lighting, framing, patience for the “moment”, post processing and so on, then printing which is a refinement that gives the photographer a tactile result of their effort. The other day I spent hours trying to get one image printed as close as I could to how I wanted it to be, test strip prints, different papers, different exposures and densities, different levels of contrast and so on…..so akin to making a wet process, darkroom, print. In the end it was worth it………and it helped me no end to define what I was trying to get when I took the photograph in the first place. Even if I could reach that result on-screen it would be meaningless to me, like holding snowflakes in your hands it would evaporate all too soon.

 

I suspect that there are a few people on this forum that go through a similar arduous yet rewarding process in one form or the other, lambda, likaleica, colint544 come to mind and their efforts I do admire if only because what they choose to show has so little to do with what they used to produce the images. With you…not so much, it seems that you are in your own words looking for some sort of "Holy Grail" of gear and for me that’s a sad empty quest.

[Jon Warwick]

18 hours ago, Steven said:

Jeff, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you belong to a rare group in extinction. People don't print anymore. 

I am in the rare group! For me, my photo process is always focused on the creation of a physical print ....in part because I find a print provides nuances in the rendering that a screen cannot decipher. Also, I find the "look" of photos on screen constantly reminds me of the output of my digital TV, which at the best of times doesn't really do much for me.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[Khun Hans]

37 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

I am in the rare group! For me, my photo process is always focused on the creation of a physical print ....in part because I find a print provides nuances in the rendering that a screen cannot decipher. Also, I find the "look" of photos on screen constantly reminds me of the output of my digital TV, which at the best of times doesn't really do much for me.

 

You are not that rare Jon. Love a good print too. Some loudspeaker in this thread here just want to be heard. Therefore they rotate their own words as they pleased.

[SoarFM]

12 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

So every lens is in effect a stop slower with the M10R? 

I know what you mean, but the difference between most lenses that are “a stop slower” than a similar focal length lens has almost nothing to do with the light gathering capabilities of the lens. Is a 50mm Summilux just a stop slower than a 50mm Noctilux? Well, it is, but that fails to describe a most important difference, what some would call the defining characteristics.. Similarly, I would no sooner describe the differences between my 28mm Summaron and my 28mm Summicron as one lens being “noisier” or “grainier” than the other although if both are shot wide open that will be a charcteristic of the resulting file or negative over the other.

Edited March 19, 2021 by SoarFM

[SoarFM]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

I printed two of my favourite photos this morning, at the Kodak center near the house. One of my daughter, one of my son. 8 euro each, probably not the best quality achievable. But you should have seen the smile on my wife's face! she was so happy ! The photo are already on the wall. Good start. 

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Those are very nice prints, the stuff that families and mom’s treasure dearly. My stock in the household always rises greatly when I produce items that can be held in the hand or framed and hung.

While we do live in a digital world, I still believe the litmus test of any image is the print, the $39 million Beeple jpeg notwithstanding.

 

 

 

I recently saw 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Ok Steven, my posting wasn’t entirely about you but it was about stuff that frustrates me when people swing so easily from one expensive piece of gear to another, for what? Bokeh? Drawing? Resolving ability? Colour and contrast? It really is utterly meaningless if the image has technical perfection but no soul, no emotion, just a pretty picture, no reason to remember it after the first passing glance.

And it isn’t entirely about silly money blown on trying and rejecting gear either. I’m no stranger to spending dollars on gear. I believe you have some association with the movie/film business, you’ve inferred as much so you know full well that purchases in that realm can make Leica stuff seem like something bought from a Dollar store. I still have my S16 Aaton Xtera and Aaton 2/3 perf’ Penelope 35 plus enough Cooke and Zeiss Prime sets and zooms to attest to that, so I do know about spending money on things photographic. The body alone of the Xtera was $56K in 2004 without magazines, batteries, lenses, support and accessories, the Penelope body double that and some……….( I’m still sad that we’ve lost that company, JP Beauviala too who I was fortunate to know ).

Anyway, I am happy that you appreciate your Kodak store prints, happy too that your wife likes them as well displayed on the walls of your home, that’s really nice. Way better than sharing them on an iPad or screen and who cares what they were shot on or with. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by petermullett

[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, petermullett said:

Ok Steven, my posting wasn’t entirely about you but it was about stuff that frustrates me when people swing so easily from one expensive piece of gear to another, for what? Bokeh? Drawing? Resolving ability? Colour and contrast? It really is utterly meaningless if the image has technical perfection but no soul, no emotion, just a pretty picture, no reason to remember it after the first passing glance.

And it isn’t entirely about silly money blown on trying and rejecting gear either. I’m no stranger to spending dollars on gear. I believe you have some association with the movie/film business, you’ve inferred as much so you know full well that purchases in that realm can make Leica stuff seem like something bought from a Dollar store. I still have my S16 Aaton Xtera and Aaton 2/3 perf’ Penelope 35 plus enough Cooke and Zeiss Prime sets and zooms to attest to that, so I do know about spending money on things photographic. The body alone of the Xtera was $56K in 2004 without magazines, batteries, lenses, support and accessories, the Penelope body double that and some……….( I’m still sad that we’ve lost that company, JP Beauviala too who I was fortunate to know ).

Anyway, I am happy that you appreciate your Kodak store prints, happy too that your wife likes them as well displayed on the walls of your home, that’s really nice. Way better than sharing them on an iPad or screen and who cares what they were shot on or with. 

I’m just trying to understand the point and sincerely not responding to fuel the fire. We can all agree that an image either has “soul” or it doesn’t regardless of the gear. And, it isn’t entirely about throwing money around because you yourself have done it. So what is the true issue at play? I’ve seen this anxiety (or whatever it may be) many times over the years on the forum but haven’t been able to place it. 

[jscottyk]

6 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

I’m just trying to understand the point and sincerely not responding to fuel the fire. We can all agree that an image either has “soul” or it doesn’t regardless of the gear. And, it isn’t entirely about throwing money around because you yourself have done it. So what is the true issue at play? I’ve seen this anxiety (or whatever it may be) many times over the years on the forum but haven’t been able to place it. 

Same here. In this forum and many others that I have visited over the years that have an equipment component, which, is especially odd to me. The fundamental premise of this place is discussion of equipment from a particular brand that is well known to be expensive. 
 

What is the true issue?

Edited March 19, 2021 by jscottyk

[Guest]

No, you are both right.....I should have kept quiet. Thanks for this............

[jscottyk]

39 minutes ago, Steven said:

Highly subjective, and also very incoherent with things you've said in the past. 

Since a couple days, some people have been bashing me here because I chose to spend 40K in lenses of the same focal length in March, and apparently money is a dirty thing now and I should hide it or be embarrassed of it (not what I expected from Leica users, but very French of you guys).

All this time, while trying to share my impressions on the lenses, I am told that lenses won't make me a better photographer and that gear doesn't matter (as if my reason for buying those lenses was for taking better picture 🙄🤔), to end up being finally told that the lenses I chose have no soul and my pictures won't ever be meaningful because of the gear, from someone who always discards gear as having an impact on a good image! This is ABSURD 😅

Anyway. Yes, the lenses I bought are expensive, but no they are not unreasonable decision.  I shared it here because I thought we all had the same passion and some people could benefit from the other's experiences. It's a pity that so many of you have reacted with so much anger, jealousy, and hate towards me these past 48 hours in every thread I try to participate. 

I really loved this place, but I guess it's time to take a step back from here... 

🥱

@StevenI hear you, and am very curious about the reactions too.

While I don't have many post here at LUF, I have been a member since 2006, and more important to this response, I have been actively participating in internet based communities since circa 1997. I feel like there has always been a component of what you mention, but it does seem to be especially prevalent here. I came back to LUF with renewed interest back in January when I was considered adding a color digital camera back into my mix to go along with my M Monochrom (aka M9 Monochrom). Previously in my life I have been a professional imager maker; shooting and printing. My printing covers the gamut from silver gelatin to alternative processes, to ink on paper with inkjet printers and gravure plates. Long story short, I was researching digital medium format (Hasselblad, Fuji, et al) vs the SL2/SL2s, and then the M10-P vs M10R. For a variety of reasons, I went with a M10-P. Along the way, I have witnessed what seems like an unusual amount of post directed at you that are really saying more about the person posting, and not you. Anger, jealousy, ax grinding, etc. 

I for one, appreciate your open and honest posts about your experiences, and I have benefited a lot from them. I don't necessarily agree with everything say, but that's not really why I come to a place like this. Personally, I left Facebook last September because the noise far outweighed the signal and it no longer served me. If LUF no longer serves you, hit the door and don't look back. I bet you will not regret it. 

I'm sure there are many here that mostly sit on the side lines and read (arm raised) that will certainly miss you, but will also fully understand.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[chasdfg]

I think I know where @petermullettis coming from, though I myself can't put it eloquently enough. I suppose its that over the recent months Steven has spent a great deal of money acquiring a lot of new gear and grail lenses to find what suits him, without having to think twice, compared to plebeians like myself (ok fine, wrong choice of word - because to own a Leica is a privilege in itself), which in most other camera forums would be an ostentatious display of wealth. Whilst I try to de-mystify lenses like the 35AA (financially out of my reach) by telling myself my 35FLE is 95% similar (and in truth it might be, will never know), and I wouldn't want the 35AA if it were the same price as my FLE, some people can find one and purchase one without thinking a fraction of the time I've spent mulling over any of the stuff I've bought. It really is a privilege in a forum full of already privileged people.

The only issue is that it'd be rich (pun intended) to criticise someone like that when we all shoot Leica too...not exactly the most cost-conscious and practical cameras to own. And on a forum which as Steven pointed out is probably most appropriate to discuss such gear. Maybe I'm over generalising but the demographic here is rather well-to-do and photos by rare lenses are relatively commonplace so it's not as though Steven (or anyone else for that matter) is flashing wads of dough to paupers. This said, and on a less related note, I do dislike the side of Leica that appeals to the wealthy...the luxury side of the brand. I've had bad experiences in Leica stores for "not dressing the part". This side of the brand I still haven't reconciled with and I do understand any unease, because I see Leica first and foremost for photographers, to take photos - it is a camera and optics company after all. The reality is Leica is more than just a camera company today and this luxury and collector side of it is always going to be around.

But if we were to focus (pun intended again) more on the aspect of Leica as a camera company, with all its history and heritage, I don't think many of us would be worthy of shooting Leica and doing justice to all of the gear we own (I know I'm not, my best photos are what HCB or Ara Guler could have taken in their sleep). I suppose on reflection I myself should learn to convert any envy I've felt on this forum into happiness for others, coupled with grace and acceptance. I count myself very lucky to own a Leica "because I can", and spending money which gives me an ounce of happiness is money well spent in my books (and these cameras have given me many ounces of happiness...and grief...but more happiness). It's great so many others can buy gear that brings them such satisfaction too.

@Steven keep doing what you're doing and just enjoy (not that my opinion counts for anything). You have contributed a fair amount to the conversations in this forum, given us little tidbits of info on certain products (ahem), shown me photos by lenses I'd probably never own (I look forward to your 35AA photos too). BTW to me the two photos you printed are symbolic. They're "just" two family snaps, but its the moments that matter to you and those around you that are important, not to anyone else. Taken with the gear that's important for you to get those moments. Everything and everyone else is irrelevant.

[NigelG]

17 minutes ago, jscottyk said:

I'm sure there are many here that mostly sit on the side lines and read (arm raised) that will certainly miss you, but will also fully understand.

Sitting on the sidelines here - a place from where one can maybe appreciate/enjoy the multiple views...

(Stephen’s only crime in my eyes has been to buy a MapCamera edition CV35 out from under my hesitant “buy-it-now” finger 🙄)