M10-P or M10R

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7 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Thanks, Peter.  I have no idea why the M10M and M10R would perform differently in this regard. The sensor is the same except for the Bayer Array. Strange.  The only high MP camera I own is the SL2, and that has IBIS to address shake.  I've shot M's since the 80's with no issues, even at low speeds, but haven't yet tried the R or the M10 Mono. I, too, shoot using RF only on my Ms; the SL2 is a different beast.

Jeff

Yes it's odd.....are the M and the R really the same sensor, I thought not but maybe I'm wrong. I have even shot the M10-M hand held with a pinhole plate and sure nothing is what you could honestly describe as "in focus" but I think I can differentiate between camera shake and an out of focus image and I don't see any shake effects with the M10-M. 

By the way, I've the MM1 too, and still love it's output and character, ( not the shutter sound though, never did ), and I've zero regrets on getting the M10-M and keeping both. I think the M10-M is Leica's finest digital M to date, if you do try one you could well be hooked too.

[anickpick]

I am surprised by the negative reports.

I most often  use 1/125 as min. shutter speed, and have no problems at all with getting sharp results with the R consistently.

Edited February 22, 2021 by anickpick

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[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, petermullett said:

 

Yes it's odd.....are the M and the R really the same sensor, I thought not but maybe I'm wrong. I have even shot the M10-M hand held with a pinhole plate and sure nothing is what you could honestly describe as "in focus" but I think I can differentiate between camera shake and an out of focus image and I don't see any shake effects with the M10-M. 

By the way, I've the MM1 too, and still love it's output and character, ( not the shutter sound though, never did ), and I've zero regrets on getting the M10-M and keeping both. I think the M10-M is Leica's finest digital M to date, if you do try one you could well be hooked too.

Yes, the M10 Monochrom and M10-R sensor architecture was derived from the S3. This has been covered here and elsewhere (see Red Dot Forum). Usually the color M comes first, and then the Bayer array is omitted for the mono version.  In this instance, the sensor was new for both versions, so it apparently took more time to deal with color issues for the R, which was released after.

I also use the MM1 (with M10) and haven’t needed more.  But I might rent the M10M just to see what all the fuss is about, and to see if it would make any difference for my style of shooting and printing.  I already know that I’ll prefer the M10 vs M9 platform, having experienced both.  But that alone isn’t worth the expense for me.

Jeff

[Steven]

20 minutes ago, anickpick said:

I am surprised by the negative reports.

I most often  use 1/125 as min. shutter speed, and have no problems at all with getting sharp results with the R consistently.

1/125 is sarting to be a fast SS. I can shoot my M10P at 1/30th with no shake visible. The R was set at the minimum at 1/125th and I preferred to keep it at 1/250 or even 1/500 to be safe. 

[anickpick]

If 1/30 is safe with the M10P, 1/45 will be safe with the M10R. That‘s my experience.

[Matlock]

4 minutes ago, anickpick said:

If 1/30 is safe with the M10P, 1/45 will be safe with the M10R. That‘s my experience.

I regularly use 1/60 and 1/125 with absolutely no problems with the M10-R but I believe it all depends on your method of working. If you constantly take photos 'on the run' then a higher speed is required.

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Matlock

[jaapv]

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It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

[Sjz]

i know it’s not a M10R however I set my M10M up the minimum SS as 2x Focal length. (And max iso 32k.)

I think that works for me with the possible exception 1/150s may be too slow for my ability to handhold every 75mm shot.  Better safe than sorry, would hate to take ‘that shot’ only to find motion blur but I don’t want to go for the 4x F option and Sod’s law,  there is no 3x F.

let’s be honest though, in daylight I am hitting the max shutter speed more often than minimum.

 

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

All makes sense, but how would you account for two people in this thread having shutter speed issues with the M10-R, but no problem with the M10 Monochrom?  Maybe viewing magnification, if presentation differs, or entirely different shooting style using each body?  Otherwise I’m at a loss.

Jeff

[jaapv]

Me too. No idea how. From my experience I can say that it was much easier to handhold the M8 up to ¼ second than the CL at 1/15

 

[dkmoore]

6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Didn’t the M10M present the same shutter speed requirements as the R?  Or didn’t you own the M10M long enough before the R to anticipate the R’s behavior?
 

Jeff

I had one of the first M10Ms in the US, received on announcement day. I didn’t notice it because i don’t use the Monochrom for everyday family shots in my house. I hadn’t run into any shutter speed issues shooting models or landscape with the M10M over a year of shooting. 

[dkmoore]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Me too. No idea how. From my experience I can say that it was much easier to handhold the M8 up to ¼ second than the CL at 1/15

 

Different uses for me. I use the M10M completely differently than my M10R, as far as subjects go. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by dkmoore

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, dkmoore said:

I had one of the first M10Ms in the US, received on announcement day. I didn’t notice it because i don’t use the Monochrom for everyday family shots in my house. I hadn’t run into any shutter speed issues shooting models or landscape with the M10M over a year of shooting. 

Flash or tripod would of course account for it.  Subject matter, too, but I guessed that your M10M might involve more quick street work vs M10-R....evidently not so.

Jeff

[dkmoore]

Even if I zoom in on an image to 200% with M10P at 1/60 the image is sharper than M10R magnified to 100% at 1/250. Maybe there is something else at play with the M10R?

I am not a flash user but 98% of my photos are during times of day that I am at least at 1/500 so it hasn’t affected me with the M10M. 

[Pixeleater]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

This article from 2016 has an excellent overview that may be of interest. https://clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/

[Steven]

5 hours ago, anickpick said:

1/45 will be safe with the M10R

Sure, on a tripod and on a sunny day maybe 😂 

[Steven]

5 hours ago, Matlock said:

I regularly use 1/60 and 1/125 with absolutely no problems with the M10-R but I believe it all depends on your method of working. If you constantly take photos 'on the run' then a higher speed is required.

 

This is my method on working indeed. Although with the M10P and my shutter speed stuck at 1/60th, all is good. On the M10R, it needed to be 1/250th. Big difference. 

[anickpick]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Steven:

Sure, on a tripod and on a sunny day maybe 😂 

a steady hand and a clear mind is all you need.

[Steven]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

I thought that was the explanation at first too. I got that from a YouTube video. In practise, that is not true, at least in my experience. 

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[Steven]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

All makes sense, but how would you account for two people in this thread having shutter speed issues with the M10-R, but no problem with the M10 Monochrom?  Maybe viewing magnification, if presentation differs, or entirely different shooting style using each body?  Otherwise I’m at a loss.

Jeff

The only explantation to me was Lens/RF calibration. Then I had them calibrated, nothing changed. The M10R needs IBIS or better low light.