M10-P or M10R

[jaapv]

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It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

[Sjz]

i know it’s not a M10R however I set my M10M up the minimum SS as 2x Focal length. (And max iso 32k.)

I think that works for me with the possible exception 1/150s may be too slow for my ability to handhold every 75mm shot.  Better safe than sorry, would hate to take ‘that shot’ only to find motion blur but I don’t want to go for the 4x F option and Sod’s law,  there is no 3x F.

let’s be honest though, in daylight I am hitting the max shutter speed more often than minimum.

 

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

All makes sense, but how would you account for two people in this thread having shutter speed issues with the M10-R, but no problem with the M10 Monochrom?  Maybe viewing magnification, if presentation differs, or entirely different shooting style using each body?  Otherwise I’m at a loss.

Jeff

[jaapv]

Me too. No idea how. From my experience I can say that it was much easier to handhold the M8 up to ¼ second than the CL at 1/15

 

[dkmoore]

6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Didn’t the M10M present the same shutter speed requirements as the R?  Or didn’t you own the M10M long enough before the R to anticipate the R’s behavior?
 

Jeff

I had one of the first M10Ms in the US, received on announcement day. I didn’t notice it because i don’t use the Monochrom for everyday family shots in my house. I hadn’t run into any shutter speed issues shooting models or landscape with the M10M over a year of shooting. 

[dkmoore]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Me too. No idea how. From my experience I can say that it was much easier to handhold the M8 up to ¼ second than the CL at 1/15

 

Different uses for me. I use the M10M completely differently than my M10R, as far as subjects go. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by dkmoore

[Jeff S]

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1 minute ago, dkmoore said:

I had one of the first M10Ms in the US, received on announcement day. I didn’t notice it because i don’t use the Monochrom for everyday family shots in my house. I hadn’t run into any shutter speed issues shooting models or landscape with the M10M over a year of shooting. 

Flash or tripod would of course account for it.  Subject matter, too, but I guessed that your M10M might involve more quick street work vs M10-R....evidently not so.

Jeff

[dkmoore]

Even if I zoom in on an image to 200% with M10P at 1/60 the image is sharper than M10R magnified to 100% at 1/250. Maybe there is something else at play with the M10R?

I am not a flash user but 98% of my photos are during times of day that I am at least at 1/500 so it hasn’t affected me with the M10M. 

[Pixeleater]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is all so simple. Motion blur is always present (unless you use a cubic yard of concrete as a tripod), but if it is small enough to be beyond the resolving power of the sensor, it will be invisible. Increase resolution and it will show up. However, in most analysis. the difference between 100% at various resolutions is ignored. If one reduces the pixel size of the higher resolving sensor to the same number of pixels as the less resolving sensor, the motion blur will "disappear" - through the lesser magnification and interpolation.

This article from 2016 has an excellent overview that may be of interest. https://clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/

[anickpick]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Steven:

Sure, on a tripod and on a sunny day maybe 😂 

a steady hand and a clear mind is all you need.

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Steven said:

The only explantation to me was Lens/RF calibration. Then I had them calibrated, nothing changed. The M10R needs IBIS or better low light. 

My question wasn't about M10R per se (others have noted shutter speed concerns), but why the difference between M10R and M10M in this regard, as they are essentially the same except for bayer array.  Seems likely either final output magnification and/or subject matter/shooting style differences.

Jeff

Edited February 22, 2021 by Jeff S

[Jeff S]

Well, I offered two possibilities, but both relate to user process, not the camera.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

Just now, Steven said:

There's one way to investigate further. Those having issues with the M10R should try the M10M to see the difference. Anyone in Paris wants to lend me an M10M? 

I personally believe its not user related, but camera/sensor/colour channel related. Bold claim, I know. J'assume...

My question came about because two people here DID use both and found a difference.  One explained that he used them differently.

Jeff

[dkmoore]

25 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

My question came about because two people here DID use both and found a difference.  One explained that he used them differently.

Jeff

I experimented further tonight because I was very curious. I used the M10M w/ 50 APO and M10R with 50 Lux ASPH, both at f2. I shot photos in my laundry room so same bright light and same distance to camera.

With my wife posing still, I could shoot at 1/60 with the M10M and get perfectly sharp image focused on the eye ball every time.

With my wife posing still, I could shoot at 1/60 with the M10R and I was seeing slight motion blur. Not horrible, but it is there. (not calibration) I know it isn't calibration because I simply moved to 250 and it was prefect at same aperture (skipped 1/125, etc just to be sure).

I was able to replicate this over and over again as I tried this a bunch to make sure I wasn't creating something from nothing. That said, with a still object (mostly still) you can get down to relatively slow speeds. It wasn't quite as bad as I made it seem earlier. 

My experiences that I discussed earlier were with my kids posing. But, my kids (like most) are never fully still so that likely accounts for some of the motion blur that I was experiencing.

I guess the outcome is that I am unsure of the results. I know from a ton of use with the M10R that I definitely need faster shutter speeds than I was used to with the P. And, it does seem to be sightly different with the Monochrom. = inconclusive. 

 

[Jeff S]

Thanks for the follow-up.  Can you repeat with some rental gear to rule out sample variation? 😂

Jeff

[dkmoore]

Just now, Jeff S said:

Thanks for the follow-up.  Can you repeat with some rental gear to rule out sample variation? 😂

Jeff

Ha, sure. Visit lens rentals and have it shipped to my address...  :  )

Just as an example at 1/60 with M10M. I cropped out probably 75% of the frame. 

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[convexferret]

If you do the maths you can work out how much you need to increase your shutter speed on an M10R vs an M10 to get the same pixel-level blur (or lack thereof). It works out at about 1/2 a stop, 1/60th to 1/90th. The actual linear resolution difference between the cameras is not that big. Of course if you print the two to the same size you will get exactly the same impression of blur.

So why would users think differently? I can think of two reasons. At pixel-level on a 40mp sensor you will be pushing the lens further. So unless you have a top lens you will not see the increase in detail that you might expect. One might see that as blur rather than lack of sharpness and suspect the wrong thing. Secondly, people are people, they hate to be wrong. Once someone thinks they see a phenomenon they will run with it. And once they've proposed it and defended it on a public forum, they will be loath to admit error.

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

This article from 2016 has an excellent overview that may be of interest. https://clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/

Yes. This one is more specific to Leica.

https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/search?q=microlens

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, dkmoore said:

Even if I zoom in on an image to 200% with M10P at 1/60 the image is sharper than M10R magnified to 100% at 1/250. Maybe there is something else at play with the M10R?

I am not a flash user but 98% of my photos are during times of day that I am at least at 1/500 so it hasn’t affected me with the M10M. 

That is not so very strange, as you are not taking the influence of noise, diffraction, microlenses, filter stack and crosstalk into consideration. A sensor is more than a collection of sensels. Smaller sensels will have a different S/N ratio than larger ones (see the Clarkvision article), will have more crosstalk depending on the microlenses (see the BarnackBerek article) and both articles will mention the diffraction limit in relationship to MP count.  The Monochrom will have no Bayer filter which will "clean up" the light path before it hits the sensel layer and no interpolation in software which acts like resolution-lowering pixel binning, giving it a superior acuity over a Bayer sensor camera.
I am not even starting to mention the influence of an AA filter (thankfully not on Leica) and thickness of the IR filter.

It is all more convoluted than counting pixels.

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[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, convexferret said:

If you do the maths you can work out how much you need to increase your shutter speed on an M10R vs an M10 to get the same pixel-level blur (or lack thereof). It works out at about 1/2 a stop, 1/60th to 1/90th. The actual linear resolution difference between the cameras is not that big. Of course if you print the two to the same size you will get exactly the same impression of blur.

So why would users think differently? I can think of two reasons. At pixel-level on a 40mp sensor you will be pushing the lens further. So unless you have a top lens you will not see the increase in detail that you might expect. One might see that as blur rather than lack of sharpness and suspect the wrong thing. Secondly, people are people, they hate to be wrong. Once someone thinks they see a phenomenon they will run with it. And once they've proposed it and defended it on a public forum, they will be loath to admit error.

While you may be right in general I don’t think your comment fits when you posted it. For one, the lenses tried and tested are two of the best. 
 

Second, I personally admitted that my assessment may be wrong and requires additional testing.  
 

Without further testing I think a 1/2 to full stop is about right for my hands anyway as long as whatever I’m taking a photo of isn’t moving a lot.