Leica discontinues CCD (M9 and Variants) sensor production

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Yes, and MM1  the best of the M series imo.- sold my M240.

[pgk]

I just don't get many of the arguments made here. More expensive Canons from the M8 era are irreparable with no support and have depreciated way beyond the M8. I have 2 x M9s still going strong and I've had my money's worth out of them regardless of any tax write down. The problem is that digital cameras simply aren't like film ones. The idea of a modular camera assumes that we can second guess what the future holds in terms of electronics. Having a mere body shell and RF mechanism to insert new innards into may sound attractive but I am absolutely sure that it would impose far too many restrictions on new model engineering and design.

And all that said there may still be M8s and M9s and MEs still running ok in a decade's time. I don't see that many can moan about them.

[IkarusJohn]

I’m hoping my MM1 will keep ticking along.  It’s still my favourite camera.

[HuntingSand]

What happens here with the M9 (I sold mine when corrosion became a problem) may filter down to the S line, specifically, the S006. That's what I currently use, the venerable M9 on steroids. The CCD sensor in my 006 was replaced last year, it'll be ok for a while, then we'll see what happens.

[Ray Vonn]

This thread has helped me come to terms with the end, I accept the analogy of the 45 year old loved car with 750,000 miles on the clock.  And it's not really Leica, it's those CCD manufacturers.  Yes the M10 is a technically better camera than the M9 of course, but I never entered this thing of ours because of features but because of rendering, that senor was one of the main points of owning such a camera as the images, to me at least, do render far differently to what's available now and can't be replicated through PP.  Nowadays, everything is relatively the same so unless you just want the badge, I personally can't see the difference in output if you put that glass on, say, an M10 or adapted to any other digital camera.  And it's not just Leica, I have the same gripe on the output from the Ricoh GR II, another camera carrying a wonderful now abandoned 16mp sensor and the GRIII, a higher megapickled camera rendering more technically perfect 'digital' images.  I can only hope my M-E 220 goes on for many years but if it doesn't, it really will be a new start in terms of gear.  Interesting times.

[Tampico]

On 8/10/2020 at 1:58 AM, rivi1969 said:

If the sensor won't show any corrosion they might say there is no need to replace it, hopefully they will have a few sensors left and do the swap so you can keep your camera for the years to come. If not, would you take the trade-in offer?

I'm also hoping they have a few sensors left as just yesterday, Leica UK only offered me the upgrade option on my corroded M9 and M Monochrom and "The options for replacing the sensor in the camera are now very limited.."

However, as I don't have £8K plus spare to upgrade to the latest M's (I don't think I am unique in this),  I have enquired with them further to see if the sensors can still be replaced as I would expect there is still a number of sensors sitting on the shelves of Leica Germany.

Otherwise, the cameras will be going on ebay for spares and my close on 10 year foray with digital M's will be coming to an end leaving me with a sour taste in the mouth and a very poor opinion of Leica Customer care.

[Guest BlackBarn]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

12 hours ago, pgk said:

I just don't get many of the arguments made here.

Leica actively promote the hand made aspect and quality ( including longevity) of their products - that is their spiders web. They do not make a distinction between the case and the operating technology of the camera. They lead the client into accepting their promotion, enforced at the point of purchase when handling the said Lieca case and it’s expensive price because bla bla bla reasoning. What the ‘you shouldn’t expect digital cameras to last’  brigade is doing,  is giving Leica an escape clause. It is putting a figure to an expectation level of digital longevity. If the expectation level, by the purchasing public, for electronics were 20 years then no doubt the industry would rise  to the challenge.  Instead it suits manufacturing companies to have shorter and shorter life expectancy of parts to enable more products to be sold. The mind set of ‘you shouldn’t expect electronics to last‘ is for the benefit of the manufacturer and designed for the gullible public to adopt.......the playing field is not level.
 

It is reasonable  to expect Lieca to  top and tail their promotional blurb by including a solid support statement for say a minimum of 15 years  and which if something outside of their control happens they Guarantee a  beneficial upgrade. Leica have every reason to be proud of their history yet they shouldn’t play on this to present  a solid front end while later feel it acceptable to hide behind a wishy washy smoke and mirrors back end. 
 

Leica sold their M10M to me as a possible keeper. Sure they would make other products in the hope they could change my mind but I assumed I had a choice. 
The essence of the posts here suggest that choice may not exist and instead have been placed in the hands of the Leica accountants and marketing elves.

[rramesh]

The M10-P is a perfect mechanical product in which there are broadly two electronic components (sensor module with associated components and the LCD screen), The bulk of the cost is the rangefinder mechanism and other mechanical bits.

Leica, if they can maintain this form factor, should somehow be able replace the electronics only with future upgrades. After all the M10-R uses the same mechanical body and rangefinder assembly as the M10-P. This will make them unique in the industry. 

• Swap out a 24Mp sensor with a 40Mp one or a 60Mp one, color or B&W as this technology evolves.
• Swap out a 2Mp LCD with a 5Mp one, or none.

Nothing else need to change.

[pgk]

2 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

The mind set of ‘you shouldn’t expect electronics to last‘ is for the benefit of the manufacturer and designed for the gullible public to adopt.......the playing field is not level.

Leica do not manufacture electronic components. If you want them to retain sufficient spares to enable a 20 year lifespan then they will have to order ore and cost it in to the purchase price - they do after all have to compete in a market in which price finally becomes a factor if they are to sell sufficient volume - and this will be higher. How much more do you think everyone would pay for such a feature. I doubt it would be much.

The idea of a modular electronic camera is an appealing one. The only real way this could be done would be to have a DMR type approach in an M body. I wonder if the problem here is simply that it has not been possible to design such a camera with current electronics and tolerance requirements? If so then it may appear at some point but my guess is that it would be a factory upgrade and the cost would probably be a very significant amount - it may even be more economic to replace the entire camera ......

[rivi1969]

Ricoh made a modular camera, even with an M-mount option, and they dumped the concept, I guess was not very profitable, imagine if we could switch sensors like if they were film: a 24mp CCD monochrome, a 12mp super low light-sensitive, and a 60mp high-resolution monster all interchangeable with one body. However let's assume Leica has the technology to do that, they will charge the equivalent of 3 complete cameras plus a premium for that kit, like 30,000 dlls anyway.

[Eric727]

Can 2nd unit get the upgrade price?

[Topsy]

I suppose I should think myself fortunate that my 3 M9s are all certified 2nd gen sensor replaced. I love the M9 and wouldn't want to have to swap them (although I did recently look hard at an M-P typ 240 but decided against it in the end). If my M9s die I will cross that bridge then.

[adan]

9 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

The mind set of ‘you shouldn’t expect electronics to last‘ is for the benefit of the manufacturer and designed for the gullible public to adopt.......the playing field is not level.

The playing field will never be level, so long as Leica knows how to make cameras - and we don't.

Inevitably, we won't be level with Leica until we can make our own cameras...

9 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

Leica sold their M10M to me as a possible keeper.

I was going to take issue with this as well, but cannot.

You are correct.

The promotional language below comes from a Leica website as of today, (Aug. 14, 2020).

 

Quote

The Leica M10 Monochrom is hand-crafted by accomplished specialists using superior-quality materials and elaborate methods of engineering.

For example, the camera’s top and base plates are neither stamped nor molded, but milled from solid blocks of brass.

Due to its robust construction, the Leica M10 Monochrom can weather even the toughest external conditions.

Made in Germany’ guarantees the utmost quality, reliability and durability, ensuring long-term value and functionality. After all, a Leica is not just a camera, but represents a worthwhile, life-long investment.

 

And while it has been 11 years, I expect Leica may well have said something similar in promoting the M9 and its variants.

 

Seems to me Leica is creating unrealistic expectations and asking for unnecessary trouble using such wording (if only to their reputation), given the reality of digital technology.

 

Unless, of course, Leica now thinks that that is a reasonable expectation, given the apparent relative ease of swapping more and more advanced sensors within the "M10 package."

[pedaes]

15 minutes ago, adan said:

The promotional language below comes from a Leica website as of today, (Aug. 14, 2020).

Personally I do not see anything misleading or unfactual - just think of the body, rangefinder and assembly. There maybe a disconnect with the electronics which I am sure were developed in good faith. I am also sure Leica could neither forsee nor want the M9 sensor problems and I am equally sure it has cost them a lot of €'s. Thankfully the Company survives or we would be having different discussions.

Edited August 14, 2020 by pedaes

[capelini61]

2 hours ago, Topsy said:

I suppose I should think myself fortunate that my 3 M9s are all certified 2nd gen sensor replaced. I love the M9 and wouldn't want to have to swap them (although I did recently look hard at an M-P typ 240 but decided against it in the end). If my M9s die I will cross that bridge then.

you were very lucky, my camera had the sensor replaced by another one of the same generation and this second sensor has now gone and my M9 has become a decoration object in my living room.

[jdlaing]

29 minutes ago, capelini61 said:

you were very lucky, my camera had the sensor replaced by another one of the same generation and this second sensor has now gone and my M9 has become a decoration object in my living room.

Did your sensor corrode within 5 years of the purchase date?

Did you buy the camera new?

[capelini61]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

O seu sensor corroeu 5 anos após a data de compra?

Você comprou a câmera nova?

I bought my M9 at the Red Dot store in London, new, about ten years ago I think. After about four years or so the first sensor crashed I sent it to the United States (I live in Brazil) they changed the sensor under warranty , but I had all the expenses of transportation. Last year the sensor broke down again, since then I contacted Leica in the USA, Germany and sent messages and E-mails to the CEO, Mr. Kaufmann and I was not convinced that the problem it was mine, bad luck, etc. Since then I realized this new reality about Leica's electronic products, this lack of correlation between the mechanical and the electronic. Each one faces this situation as he wishes. I will photograph with my I phone and my M7.

[rramesh]

6 hours ago, adan said:

  Quote

The Leica M10 Monochrom is hand-crafted by accomplished specialists using superior-quality materials and elaborate methods of engineering.

For example, the camera’s top and base plates are neither stamped nor molded, but milled from solid blocks of brass.

Due to its robust construction, the Leica M10 Monochrom can weather even the toughest external conditions.

Made in Germany’ guarantees the utmost quality, reliability and durability, ensuring long-term value and functionality. After all, a Leica is not just a camera, but represents a worthwhile, life-long investment.

Nowhere does it say that it will continue to take great pictures, though.

[adan]

It may seem I come down on both sides of this question - and I do.

I never bought any Leica based on Leica's "advertising" - except the indirect advertising of seeing massive amounts of work by Leica photographers for 30 years (and from 75 years) in museums, galleries, and publications, and being impressed with the character and quality of seeing through a window instead of off a screen.

I bought them because I wanted the manual split-image focusing and the compactness and lighter weight and silence (in pre-mirrorless, post-AF times) and the contrast and color rendering of older 1980s lenses (as experienced and tried out by myself). And frankly, even my film Ms "lasted" about 3 years (2001-2004), because the Digilux 2 came along and persuaded me of the potential of digital.

When digital Ms came along, I still wanted all those same "Leica M" things in an M8, M9, M?? And I read what the warranties stated, and assumed I would get at least that longevity - PLUS whatever luck brought me (I anticipated 10 years maximum). And priced that out against the cost of E6 film, processing and lab trips over X many years - a digital M was cheaper.

I wasn't obsessive about longevity, though, because it was clear there was still room for - and needed to be - significant improvements. Neither an M8 nor an M9 would be my "life-long" camera, just steps along the way, as the new paradigm of digital progressed ( hoped).

So the M8s "lasted" about 2.8 years because as a 21mm shooter, I wanted 24x36 (and a marginal ISO increase) the instant it came along.

And my M9s "lasted" about 7.5 years because as a 135 f/4 shooter, I wanted better focusing and ISO 10000, smaller size, and a much quieter shutter, the instant those all came along.

In my case, they "died" not because of faulty or unavailable parts, but because of other factors.

Nevertheless, as an observer, I can note that Leica probably should not promote their digital cameras in quite the same terms as their film cameras. Unless they have actually overcome the disposable character of digital cameras with a platform (the M10?) with a better life-expectancy.

Edited August 15, 2020 by adan

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[IkarusJohn]

I don’t think anyone needs to establish that they relied on any specific marketing statement by Leica on longevity.

The fact is that Leica cameras have always been made and sold for a premium price, coupled with Leica’s long term support.  Its cameras and lenses have a huge legacy, and Leica has supported that legacy for almost 100 years.  What was perhaps overlooked was that, while the M8 & M9 were developed and put to market as digital M cameras, with the legacy that came with them, they had electronics included with them which did not match the rest of the camera (in longevity and support terms).

While no buyer could reasonably assume that the electronics would last as long as the rangefinder, lens or other traditional parts of the camera, I don’t think it was unreasonable to assume that Leica would provide the required support for those parts - on the contrary, such support was a reasonable expectation.

Now, that does not mean (as has been suggested) that Leica needed to purchase and store a mountain of spare parts - I don’t think any manufacturer does that.  But they do secure ongoing commitment from their suppliers to provide parts.  Now, some also opine that technology moves on and suppliers can’t or won’t be able to continue such supplies.  I don’t accept the “can’t”, as in other applications (particularly industrial), that’s exactly what they do.  CCD sensors are still made for applications other than still photography.  As for the “won’t”, again that is a question of price and will.

The fact of the matter is that Leica dropped the ball on this.  Made worse by installing the same faulty sensor in cameras with corroded sensors, and not standing behind those repairs - the second replacement with the better sensor wasn’t covered by the warranty.  I think that was disgraceful, but it goes hand in hand with their initial attempts to deny the problem altogether.  Imagine if Leica had contacted every dealer, and every owner who had registered the product, and proactively advised them of the fault and that they were working on a replacement, and programmed in the repairs.  Instead, they hid from the problem for weeks, until the pressure was too much.

Hopefully, we won’t see a repeat with the M10 based cameras.