Which 90 to compliment the V4 or V5 50mm Summicron

[JTLeica]

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Evening all,

I have recently acquired a Q2 which I am starting to bond with, and I have a Z7 that is working really well with Leica lenses. I have just sold my 50 Lux ASPH and replaced it with a 50 Cron V4, I prefer the look. Which of the two 90mm lenses below will render and perform similarly to the 50mm Cron V4/5?

90mm Elmarit M

90mm Tele Elmarit (thinner version)

By perform, I mean sharp ish wide open but a softer overall feel, with nice circular Bokeh, with the lens becoming extremely sharp by F4 or so.

I will mainly use this for travel / hiking / landscape work with the option of a few softer portrait shots.

Thank you in advance

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[TomB_tx]

Both can be fine lenses - but many of the thin TE have not aged well, and aren’t very serviceable. Don’t discount the Fat TE: it was my first Leica lens, and I’ve used it since 1968. It is also a Midland design (like your Summicron), and still compares well with my 90 Summarit (which I use more for the focus action).

I think all Leica 90s are very good.

[luigi bertolotti]

Personally, I'd go for the Elmarit M ... you also re-gain a built in hood (which you lost switching to Summicron V4... 😉... if we agree on the unofficial "V n" numbering)  ; the "fat" TE quoted above is a very pleasant to use lens, very compact but (having both) I feel it's more comparable to Summicrons older than V4...  but you speak of "softer portrait shots" ... indeed the fat TE can be avery good choice for this (*) ; the fat TE goes not for cheap, and you get anyway a lens 50 years old (around) ... it could be in  someway risky conditions (even if its construction is excellent... one of the best built 90s)  

(*) my Elmarit M is never soft ... even wide open , if correctly focused.

Edited July 26, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[lct]

4 hours ago, JTLeica said:

By perform, I mean sharp ish wide open but a softer overall feel, with nice circular Bokeh, with the lens becoming extremely sharp by F4 or so.

Thin Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8 if you don't shoot mostly into the light as it tends to flare when bright light sources are just outside the frame. Elmarit 90/2.8 v2 has less flare but is sharper at f/2.8 and is also significantly bigger. Great lens though.

[Mark T]

Something else to consider is the 90mm Summarit. It's based on the design of the last of pre-asph Summicrons. It is quite sharp at mid apertures (according to Erwin Puts, it's a stronger performed than the above-mentioned Elmarit). However, at larger aperture it's characteristics are pleasant for portraits. It is also a newer lens than others mentioned, which is typically good in terms of wear and tear. Lastly, it has blackened internals and is a strong performer with regard to flare. It's weight and handling are quite amenable. Highly recommended.

[poli]

If you mainly use it for hiking, travel, etc. i would consider the size  I do own a pre asph summicron (large, heavy) which i love for portraits. Buti would never take on a hike i also own a Elmarit M. It is a bit sharper. Great lens. But almost ad big and heavu as the Summicron. Also don’t not pleasant on hikes in my opinion. Today I am actually selling the Elmarit. And I am looking at the Macro-Elmar. 

[adan]

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The Tele-Elmarit-M (thin) will be very similar in handling to a v.4 50 Summicron - in fact it will feel almost exactly like a longer version of the 50mm - and insanely light (225g). They were sold side-by-side between 1980-1990.

The imaging (contrast, color, resolution) will also be very similar - except for the strong flaring tendency in strong backlighting, already mentioned. You will want to consider finding the reversible metal 12575 lens hood - and frankly, even then, you may still get some flare. But if you avoid flare situations, the 90 TEM and 50 v.4 will handle and image like brother and sister.

Ideally, get a later model with the golden  90  engraved on the lens mount.

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The 90 Elmarit-M is slightly more (here we go again!) "modern" in imaging - more contrast and clarity, warmer/pinker color. As well as larger and heavier (46mm filters instead of 39mm, 410g). For my taste it would pair better with a 50 Summilux ASPH in general imaging character. The 90 Summarit will be in the size and imaging class of the Elmarit-M, but a tad lighter (360g) since it skips the built-in lens hood.

Edited July 27, 2020 by adan

[lct]

Another vote for the Summarit 90/2.4 (or 90/2.5) but it has significantly more acutance at f/2.8 than the "thin" Tele-Elmarit. Another great lens indeed. I dislike its screw-in hood though. Too slow to screw and unscrew for my taste. I much prefer the built-in hood of the Elmarit 90/2.8 v2 or even the rubber hood of the "thin" Tele-Elmarit from this stand point. As far as flare is concerned, no hood can fix the T-E's problem in my experience but making some more shade with a hat or the hand can do it. BTW it is less of a problem on mirrorless cameras given that the flare is visible in the EVF. I have no experience with the OP's Nikon but all those 90mm lenses work fine on my digital CL and Kolari mod Sony A7s.

[JTLeica]

11 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Both can be fine lenses - but many of the thin TE have not aged well, and aren’t very serviceable. Don’t discount the Fat TE: it was my first Leica lens, and I’ve used it since 1968. It is also a Midland design (like your Summicron), and still compares well with my 90 Summarit (which I use more for the focus action).

I think all Leica 90s are very good.

Cheers Tom,

I kinda ruled out the Fat version as I read that it's less sharp even when stopped down. Which puts me off a little. Thoughts on this? I am not needing perfectly even sharpness across the whole frame but by F8 I'd like it to be closer ish.

[JTLeica]

10 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Personally, I'd go for the Elmarit M ... you also re-gain a built in hood (which you lost switching to Summicron V4... 😉... if we agree on the unofficial "V n" numbering)  ; the "fat" TE quoted above is a very pleasant to use lens, very compact but (having both) I feel it's more comparable to Summicrons older than V4...  but you speak of "softer portrait shots" ... indeed the fat TE can be avery good choice for this (*) ; the fat TE goes not for cheap, and you get anyway a lens 50 years old (around) ... it could be in  someway risky conditions (even if its construction is excellent... one of the best built 90s)  

(*) my Elmarit M is never soft ... even wide open , if correctly focused.

Thank you for the insight. And yes I thought that the V4 (hoodless)  was probably more comparable to the Tele thin Elmarit or the Elmarit M.

So you would say the Elmarit M lacks any character wide open? The size and weight is also a factor too, and the Tele is quite a bit smaller and lighter. 

Interesting to hear too that the Tele thin possibly has not aged well and suffers from haze at times.

[a.noctilux]

JT,

more opinions, T-E 90mm

...

nice read here ...

[JTLeica]

4 hours ago, poli said:

If you mainly use it for hiking, travel, etc. i would consider the size  I do own a pre asph summicron (large, heavy) which i love for portraits. Buti would never take on a hike i also own a Elmarit M. It is a bit sharper. Great lens. But almost ad big and heavu as the Summicron. Also don’t not pleasant on hikes in my opinion. Today I am actually selling the Elmarit. And I am looking at the Macro-Elmar. 

Awesome thanks. You might laugh but I have just sold a 90mm Macro that is perfect for hiking. But too expensive to keep just for the occasional use is gets. Plus no character which makes up probably 30% of why I want a different 90. I think you're steering me towards the Tele thin

3 hours ago, adan said:

The Tele-Elmarit-M (thin) will be very similar in handling to a v.4 50 Summicron - in fact it will feel almost exactly like a longer version of the 50mm - and insanely light (225g). They were sold side-by-side between 1980-1990.

The imaging (contrast, color, resolution) will also be very similar - except for the strong flaring tendency in strong backlighting, already mentioned. You will want to consider finding the reversible metal 12575 lens hood - and frankly, even then, you may still get some flare. But if you avoid flare situations, the 90 TEM and 50 v.4 will handle and image like brother and sister.

Ideally, get a later model with the golden  90  engraved on the lens mount.

The 90 Elmarit-M is slightly more (here we go again!) "modern" in imaging - more contrast and clarity, warmer/pinker color. As well as larger and heavier (46mm filters instead of 39mm, 410g). For my taste it would pair better with a 50 Summilux ASPH in general imaging character. The 90 Summarit will be in the size and imaging class of the Elmarit-M, but a tad lighter (360g) since it skips the built-in lens hood.

Thanks for your time with this post.

Regarding the flare. I do quite like to shoot into the sun... Will this be a no go with the tele? Images like this below I shot this weekend with the 50 cron and while it flares, it is totally acceptable to my tastes and I can get rid of it with a couple of well placed fingers and combine in in post. Will either tele elmarit flare far more than this? The last one is directly into the sun and while it flares, it has retained some contrast still.

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Another vote for the Summarit 90/2.4 (or 90/2.5) but it has significantly more acutance at f/2.8 than the "thin" Tele-Elmarit. Another great lens indeed. I dislike its screw-in hood though. Too slow to screw and unscrew for my taste. I much prefer the built-in hood of the Elmarit 90/2.8 v2 or even the rubber hood of the "thin" Tele-Elmarit from this stand point. As far as flare is concerned, no hood can fix the T-E's problem in my experience but making some more shade with a hat or the hand can do it. BTW it is less of a problem on mirrorless cameras given that the flare is visible in the EVF. I have no experience with the OP's Nikon but all those 90mm lenses work fine on my digital CL and Kolari mod Sony A7s.

Dammit not another option  I think I will avoid the summarits. I do prefer the slightly older lenses for what its worth. The new designs although superb and technically better than older ones, I just dont click with quite as much. Good to know about the EVF making it easier. It sure is lovely getting the result before you take the shot.

Thanks for all the help and opinions so far. Very helpful indeed.

Does anyone know about the lasting quality of the Thin Tele Elmarit? Some articles suggest they are not overly well made? It is very light but part of that has to be the tiny elements and theres only 4 of them to start with.

Edited July 27, 2020 by JTLeica

[lct]

I bought my "thin" Tele-Elmarit in the eighties. It aged very well and works fine on my modern bodies. Look at the dewdrops here for instance (Sony A7s mod, T-E 90/2.8, f/8).

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[a.noctilux]

12 minutes ago, JTLeica said:

Awesome thanks. You might laugh but I have just sold a 90mm Macro that is perfect for hiking. But too expensive to keep just for the occasional use is gets. Plus no character which makes up probably 30% of why I want a different 90. I think you're steering me towards the Tele thin

Thanks for your time with this post.

 

Does anyone know about the lasting quality of the Thin Tele Elmarit? Some articles suggest they are not overly well made? It is very light but part of that has to be the tiny elements and theres only 4 of them to start with.

 

Yes ,  ...only four separate lenses from Wiki

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The flare is not obvious when strong light in the field, but only when it's just outside of the field ...strange.

Edited July 27, 2020 by a.noctilux

[JTLeica]

2 hours ago, lct said:

I bought my "thin" Tele-Elmarit in the eighties. It aged very well and works fine on my modern bodies. Look at the dewdrops here for instance (Sony A7s mod, T-E 90/2.8, f/8).

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Sharp enough for me LCT. I am just enquiring about two for 499 and 699 and look a little too clean for the price but we will see.

[luigi bertolotti]

3 hours ago, JTLeica said:

 

Interesting to hear too that the Tele thin possibly has not aged well and suffers from haze at times.

I think  that, maybe only for some lenses , there was a known issue about the back element.. I remember to have read something about, but, not having the Thin TE, didn't take much care on.

[lct]

29 minutes ago, JTLeica said:

Sharp enough for me LCT. I am just enquiring about two for 499 and 699 and look a little too clean for the price but we will see.

Just check that the glass is clean to avoid the haze issue referred to by Luigi above.

[JTLeica]

 

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

I think  that, maybe only for some lenses , there was a known issue about the back element.. I remember to have read something about, but, not having the Thin TE, didn't take much care on.

 

1 hour ago, lct said:

Just check that the glass is clean to avoid the haze issue referred to by Luigi above.

Thanks both,

I have just ordered a Tele Elmarit from a London Leica dealer for £499 which looks to be in great condition other than a few white numbers fading. Asked about the optics and apparently they're clear so we shall see.

Thanks for your help guys!

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[Alberti]

I percieve my Macro Elmar 90 to have a very similar rendering as the 50-Cron ver V. 

[Stein K S]

I have both the 50 cron v5 and the 90 Elmarit-M. and I find them to be a good fit.

 

However, the other day I did a couple of shoots against the sun. The sun not directly in the picture but close... with hood pulled out and even trying to provide extra ¨protection¨ with hand (I do use filter on the lens).But all shots gave the same ¨foggy¨ result... got curious about this behaviour and tried slightly different angles, but same result.

The lens to though is generally flare free... and really very very nice overall!

 

Sorry, got problems with picture upload.. ill try again later

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Stein K S