M10R

[Casey Jefferson]

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2 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Why are you expecting these steps back?.  You may be reading too much into the Nokeshita typescript.  The most natural new product for the M line would be to take the improvements that the line has brought to market so far -- quieter shutter, some more onboard sensors, a 40 MPx chip technology -- all done without needing to go to new batteries or a bigger body.  And slap a Bayer filter on top.  The chip technology became available to the designers in Wetzlar sometime last year, The folks working on the S3 seem to have done a fine job on delivering colors and dynamic range improvements, The chip is working in the M10M so all that remained to be done is to tune and test colors for its use in an M10-P platform.  

EDIT: oops...Repeated what others said 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Casey Jefferson

[wlaidlaw]

I think it is an appropriate moment to post the flow chart below, which dates from the M240. 😀😀😀

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[lldd]

Why is the m10r cheaper than an m10p?

[farnz]

32 minutes ago, lldd said:

Why is the m10r cheaper than an m10p?

Because "r" follows "p" alphabetically.*

They'll be paying customers to buy the m10z.

Pete.

*The price of the M10-R hasn't been announced yet.

[wlaidlaw]

If you look at the price changes in digital Leica M's from M8 to M10-R, 2006 to 2020, the pre-tax $ price has effectively doubled. As a comparison, the top of the line Canon from say the 1DSMk.II of 2005 to the 1DX Mk.III of 2020, the pre-tax $ price has actually reduced slightly from $6500 to $6000. One has to question if Leica has added that much more value to their latest M in comparison to Canon with their professional DSLR. I do have a tiny suspicion that our pockets are being milked. 

Wilson

[anickpick]

No problem with taking from the Rich.

[wlaidlaw]

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3 minutes ago, anickpick said:

No problem with taking from the Rich.

Not everyone who aspires to buy a Leica is rich. 😕

Wilson

[anickpick]

It‘s all relative.

Leica is a luxury brand...

Edited July 13, 2020 by anickpick

[budjames]

57 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

If you look at the price changes in digital Leica M's from M8 to M10-R, 2006 to 2020, the pre-tax $ price has effectively doubled. As a comparison, the top of the line Canon from say the 1DSMk.II of 2005 to the 1DX Mk.III of 2020, the pre-tax $ price has actually reduced slightly from $6500 to $6000. One has to question if Leica has added that much more value to their latest M in comparison to Canon with their professional DSLR. I do have a tiny suspicion that our pockets are being milked. 

Wilson

BMWs and Audis cost more than Hondas and Toyotas too. They target different markets and still make money. I'm glad we have choices. 

Before switching to Leica 3 years ago, I was a Fuji shooter for 5 years and a Canon shooter before that for 40+ years. Yes, I'm old.

Fuji X is a great camera system. I continually upgraded my Fuji X bodies as they became available: Fuji X100S, T and F. Fuji XT1, XT2, XT3 and XH1. I also had a number of Fuji XF prime and zoom lenses which are excellent.

In comparison, the Leica M primes that I have purchased for my M10 will last for decades and still have a resale value. My M10 and M10 converted to M10P bodies should last for years even if made obsolete by newer sensor technology (M10R). Personally, I am happy with the Leica M for my vacation and street photography. I don't shoot sports, wildlife or fast moving subjects so I no longer need long zoom lenses and high speed frame rates. My images look great. I'm very happy!

When I got into Leica, I was told "buy once, cry once". How true!

Also, after owning 6 Audi A6 and S6 sedans over the past 14 years, I just ordered my first BMW, a 2021 M550i, a few weeks ago. My wife loves her Honda Accord. Choices are great!

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[pascal_meheut]

7 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

If you look at the price changes in digital Leica M's from M8 to M10-R, 2006 to 2020, the pre-tax $ price has effectively doubled.I do have a tiny suspicion that our pockets are being milked. 

I agree (kind of). On the other hand, if you look at this forum history, you'll see that I've been "lucky" enough to receive one of the first M8.

So paying twice the price for a fully working, FF, no IR, no banding, precise rangefinder, silent slim M10 is something I have no problem with 😉

[T25UFO]

7 hours ago, anickpick said:

No problem with taking from the Rich.

But only if you give to the poor . . .

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, pascal_meheut said:

I agree (kind of). On the other hand, if you look at this forum history, you'll see that I've been "lucky" enough to receive one of the first M8.

So paying twice the price for a fully working, FF, no IR, no banding, precise rangefinder, silent slim M10 is something I have no problem with 😉

....but Canon users are getting all these benefits allied to a small price reduction rather than a doubling in price. How much of the M price is in the electronic suite and sensor. I would be surprised if it was more than 15 to 20%. The rest of the M10 is essentially the same as an M8. 

Wilson

 

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

....but Canon users are getting all these benefits allied to a small price reduction rather than a doubling in price. How much of the M price is in the electronic suite and sensor. I would be surprised if it was more than 15 to 20%. The rest of the M10 is essentially the same as an M8. 

I think you're underestimating the electronic parts cost, particularly at intro with a new sensor, given the volumes involved. That said, I believe you've answered your own question. Comparing an RF to an SLR is apples to cumquats. From a parts and assembly PoV, the RF is a more complicated and delicate affair, which coupled to the higher labor costs in Germany means that it is more expensive to produce. After decades of production, one assumes whatever conventional efficiencies that could be applied have been. Therefore the bodies will only get more and more expensive over time as labor and materials cost continue to escalate with no effective way to counter them. Perhaps some day the body or significant portions of it will be 3D printed, but that day has yet to arrive as far as I know.  

So while I am dismayed at the reported cost, particularly as it represents a 30% increase over my now 3+ year old M10, I do not believe that Leica is gouging here. Consider the SL2 debuted at a far lower cost with far greater feature content than its predecessor. The M body is just an expensive to produce proposition that is likely to grow increasingly more so over time. 

[bags27]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

I think you're underestimating the electronic parts cost, particularly at intro with a new sensor, given the volumes involved. That said, I believe you've answered your own question. Comparing an RF to an SLR is apples to cumquats. From a parts and assembly PoV, the RF is a more complicated and delicate affair, which coupled to the higher labor costs in Germany means that it is more expensive to produce. After decades of production, one assumes whatever conventional efficiencies that could be applied have been. Therefore the bodies will only get more and more expensive over time as labor and materials cost continue to escalate with no effective way to counter them. Perhaps some day the body or significant portions of it will be 3D printed, but that day has yet to arrive as far as I know.  

So while I am dismayed at the reported cost, particularly as it represents a 30% increase over my now 3+ year old M10, I do not believe that Leica is gouging here. Consider the SL2 debuted at a far lower cost with far greater feature content than its predecessor. The M body is just an expensive to produce proposition that is likely to grow increasingly more so over time. 

I agree mostly, since I suspect labor costs for a digital M are very high But the SL2 has fierce competition within the high mps, mirrorless market (including some of its own doing via the L consortium). The M range finder has none. If you want a digital RF, you must be willing to pay the price Leica sets. To my mind, that effective monopoly makes the different net costs of development, parts, and labor of the SL2 and the M10-whatever undiscoverable. Case in point: the M-A, with no electronic parts at all, retails for nearly as much as the SL2. This can probably best be explained by market leverage and not by production cost. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by bags27

[johnbuckley]

Sometimes we forget that Leica is a tiny company. For Leica to go from the M8 to the M10R - for Leica to have *survived* - with the camera price effectively doubling, while Canon gets enough efficiency from its size to keep the price flat, doesn’t surprise me. Leica charges a premium for doing things in a different way. We are talking about a rangefinder, for Godsake, in 2020. This crazy but, to us, necessary approach to photography has a small market. You pay more for things in small batches, not because they’re milking us, but because the economics of high quality, small batch production dictates it.
 

I don’t like paying high prices and the price of the M10R will hurt, but I am so grateful they survived the shift to digital and are competitive with giant companies.

[farnz]

5 hours ago, bags27 said:

Case in point: the M-A, with no electronic parts at all, retails for nearly as much as the SL2. This can probably best be explained by market leverage and not by production cost. 

And amortisation of design and development costs.

Pete.

[Tailwagger]

IIRC, Leica stated sometime back, perhaps when the M7 was discontinued, that despite the lost opportunity cost, they would continue to produce film bodies at break even so long as there was sufficient demand. Demand has risen and recently they explained why they are having trouble meeting it. Just two months ago, they stated the opposite of Ken's assertion: 

Quote

He (Stephan Daniel) went on to say that the manufacture of film cameras is a highly skilled process and has to be undertaken by trained staff. “They don’t grow on trees”, he said. A film camera contains 1,100 to 1,200 parts and is far more complex than a digital camera. Tooling from the 1960s and 1970s has to be maintained...

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Tailwagger

[Torontoamateur]

With the tightening of budgets of buyers because of the declining economy during this pandemic , Leica has to be cognizant of this monetary restraint. Fewer people are willing to part with the big expenditures. Yes there is the dedicated " Leicafile" ( I self identify as one) , but I am now cautious of my expenditures. I do how Leica will be reasonable in this new camera. Maybe it is time for them to institute a trade in program.

[bags27]

He (Stephan Daniel) went on to say that the manufacture of film cameras is a highly skilled process and has to be undertaken by trained staff. “They don’t grow on trees”, he said. A film camera contains 1,100 to 1,200 parts and is far more complex than a digital camera. Tooling from the 1960s and 1970s has to be maintained...

I get the artisanal costs. But there is massive elasticity in pricing on a luxury good on which you hold a monopoly. Hermes produces quite beautiful ties (~$200) and scarves (~$400) that the aspirational class can afford, because there is competition. But there is no effective competition for their Birkin Bag, and the sky's the limit. I have bought my wife their scarves, and she's been grateful. But if I bought her a Birkin Bag, she'd insist that I sell it at Sotheby's for a massive profit. (I, on the other hand, would eagerly accept an M10R if she gave me one for my birthday next week, and I very much hope she's reading this 😀).

A few minutes ago, we in America received a letter from the new president of Leica America, where he notes his credentials: "With 30 years of experience in the luxury accessories sector at Montblanc North America, Christian Dior Watches, Breguet, and Swatch Group, I hope to use my past learnings to support Leica’s growth and evolution."

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by bags27

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[ynp]

Got an invite for a Leica event on Thursday night. We will see the new camera. Maybe I’ll upgrade my M9u