21mm lenses

[Simone_DF]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 6/21/2020 at 5:32 PM, Cobram said:

I'm pretty sure CV will never catch Leica resale value... cause Leica is not only photo equipment piece but also a collector item.

I just had a quick look on eBay.

A brand new SEM is 2850€.

A used SEM in "mint" condition is 2200-2300, by selling that lens the owner is losing about 500€ (+ ebay and paypal fees).

A brand new Voigtlander 1.4 is 1200€, it has to drop to 700€ before you lose the same amount of money, and ebay and paypal fees will be lower so you save an extra 50€. 

Sorry but this "resale value" is just an urban legend. It applies only to very specific lenses like the 75 Lux or lenses designed to be collector pieces from the beginning and nothing else. 

[lct]

Reasoning in percentage might help. i'm aware of no 24x36 lens keeping their value as well as Leica's but i may be wrong.

[pgk]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Sorry but this "resale value" is just an urban legend. It applies only to very specific lenses like the 75 Lux or lenses designed to be collector pieces from the beginning and nothing else. 

No it isn't, but like new cars, used camera equipment depreciates quickly at first, then slows or in the case of Leica made M lenses, stabilises. They then start to appreciate, but generally slowly. Older none-Leica lenses, unless rare, continue to slowly depreciate in general. I'm talking about the long term though, and buying, using, selling and upgrading over many years has resulted in being able to build up a suite of equipment which I would otherwise have struggled to buy. This is my own experience - Leica M lenses do slowly appreciate, some more than others.

[Cobram]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

No it isn't, but like new cars, used camera equipment depreciates quickly at first, then slows or in the case of Leica made M lenses, stabilises. They then start to appreciate, but generally slowly. Older none-Leica lenses, unless rare, continue to slowly depreciate in general. I'm talking about the long term though, and buying, using, selling and upgrading over many years has resulted in being able to build up a suite of equipment which I would otherwise have struggled to buy. This is my own experience - Leica M lenses do slowly appreciate, some more than others.

Agree 100%.

[ianman]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

This is my own experience - Leica M lenses do slowly appreciate, some more than others.

Sometimes even not so slowly. As Leica increase prices on a fairly regular basis, it's not uncommon to see 2nd hand copies of lenses still in production at a higher cost that the initial brand new price.

However this should not be taken solely on the basis of quality or even brand legend. With the increasing popularity of the Leica M in the past decade or so, it's inevitable that demand for lenses has also increased, thus pushing up prices.

[chasdfg]

I don't disagree with @Simone_DF that in the short term buying and selling a Leica lens is likely to lose more money than a CV or Zeiss lens, though the percentage lost may be the same.

Longer term I am certain if someone bought relatively good to mint condition lenses today, especially those discontinued ones, their prices will go up even if they aren't collectibles or perennially popular lenses like the 50 Noctilux f1. This is the case even if you leave aside the jumps in second hand prices more recently, e.g. since the noughties when Leica wasn't doing so well till a little past the M9 frenzy from 2009 till 2012-13. 

For lenses in production this is the case too, due to price increases via the annual-ish price increases across the board or due trade tariffs and exchange rates.

But the lenses should be kept in good condition. Once there are optical or exterior defects the resale value becomes more uncertain. Also, used lens price increases tend to be more obvious for generally popular focal lengths.

CV or Leica, I wouldn't bank on resale value if it's a lens I want to use regularly.

[RayD28]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I don't have much to offer on this topic given the knowledgeable advice posted.  I will offer something I've learned that may apply when you have your heart set on specific piece of equipment.  I've wanted equipment that I could not afford and decided on something less expensive and in the long run cost me more than than if I bought what I wanted in the first place or waited until my budget was bigger. Example is a Leica 50mm Summilux  ASPH I wanted to start my Leica kit.  I started photography with an Olympus OM 2 that came with a 50mm 1.4.  I like fast lenses so long as size is reasonable.   I bought a current version 50mm Summicron and kept it for a year.  Then I traded it plus cash to get the Summilux.  I am reluctant to use e-bay or other online sites to sell expensive equipment so the trade-in value was about $400 less than what I paid.  Thus the $3,000 Summilux eventually cost me $3,400.  

I'm not implying that one brand of lens is better than another but, to me, the OP bringing up this topic implies he wants the SEM but wants advice on a less expensive option that may be temporary in the long.

Ray

[Cobram]

18 hours ago, RayD28 said:

I don't have much to offer on this topic given the knowledgeable advice posted.  I will offer something I've learned that may apply when you have your heart set on specific piece of equipment.  I've wanted equipment that I could not afford and decided on something less expensive and in the long run cost me more than than if I bought what I wanted in the first place or waited until my budget was bigger. Example is a Leica 50mm Summilux  ASPH I wanted to start my Leica kit.  I started photography with an Olympus OM 2 that came with a 50mm 1.4.  I like fast lenses so long as size is reasonable.   I bought a current version 50mm Summicron and kept it for a year.  Then I traded it plus cash to get the Summilux.  I am reluctant to use e-bay or other online sites to sell expensive equipment so the trade-in value was about $400 less than what I paid.  Thus the $3,000 Summilux eventually cost me $3,400.  

I'm not implying that one brand of lens is better than another but, to me, the OP bringing up this topic implies he wants the SEM but wants advice on a less expensive option that may be temporary in the long.

Ray

Dear Ray,

I think you nailed it.

Similar experience with 50mm lens. My heart was on Summilux 50 that at the time could not afford. So I ended up buying Nokton 50 1.2. After a year I sold it and bought...yes...Summilux ☺️

Thank you for your comment. Much appreciated. First I was thinking to buy the new VM 21 3.5 but my heart was already settled on SEM :-) .

Now I'm torn between Nokton 1.4 and SEM, major factor my M-E (220) low light capabilities. I will wait some weeks and see if any new reviews or photos related to Nokton will be published. 

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, Cobram said:

I will wait some weeks and see if any new reviews or photos related to Nokton will be published. 

I think there's some in-depth review for the Sony mount, have a look on Fred Miranda's forum

[RayD28]

M-E 220 and you want another one or two stops?  I'm not sure about M-E prices but Ms can be had for about $2,700.  I had an M9 and the ISO above 800 was, to me, way too noisy.  My photoshop/lightroom knowledge is not good so noise correction in PP was marginal.  I took advantage of Leica's trade-in program in 2017 and got a 240 and ISO up to 3200 is acceptable.  I know there is a hard-stop limit to a budget, but if a digital body upgrade is on your horizon, I'd step back and think long and hard about a lens purchase.  I'm relatively new to Leica, but I've always heard good glass is the foundation to a good system.  

[rscheffler]

On 6/25/2020 at 2:49 AM, Cobram said:

 

Now I'm torn between Nokton 1.4 and SEM, major factor my M-E (220) low light capabilities. I will wait some weeks and see if any new reviews or photos related to Nokton will be published. 

Over on the Fred Miranda forum, the forum owner tested the Nokton 21/1.4 M-mount version on the M10 at infinity and the performance was excellent across the full aperture range. Of course, that doesn't tell you everything about the lens, but it indicates excellent across-frame sharpness performance.

Back around 2012 with the M9, I was kind of in a similar situation to you in regards to 21mm... I had the ZM21/2.8 but it was a bit too slow for indoor low light people photography and ended up getting the 21 Lux. For that use scenario, I was very happy with the Lux. But it had other shortcomings, such as a significant dip in mid zone sharpness that negatively affected image quality when the subject was placed in the rule of thirds area. It also purple fringed severely in technically challenging high detail, high contrast situations at and near wide open. 

At one point I owned four 21mm M lenses: ZM21/2.8, 21 SEM, 21 Lux and Ultron 1.8. I much preferred the smaller size, flatter field of focus and low color shift of the SEM over the ZM. Between the Lux and Ultron, the differences were not that noticeable. IIRC, the Ultron's field curvature was not as annoying as the Lux, but it had strong purple fringing, which is not uncommon with fast non-APO lenses. Given I used a fast 21 more for near distance wide open type people photos, I preferred the Lux's rendering and kept it over the Ultron (I also didn't like the Ultron's permanent lens hood).

All that said, had the current Nokton 21/1.4 been available back then, I would have bought it hands down. Given the results I've seen from it in the Sony E mount version (the Leica M mount version appears to be properly Leica-optimized and therefore equally sharp on Leica cameras), it could be a great all-round 21mm solution, in respect to image quality from wide open through stopped down.

Given that it appears your priority for a 21mm lens is indoor people photography, IMO, the Nokton makes sense because it will also be excellent for any other outdoor, bright light uses. The tradeoff will of course be size and weight. Down the road you might find that there are enough situations where you don't want to bring a huge and heavy 21. For those times, the Voigtlander 21/3.5 might make sense. But the SEM really is a fantastic lens that from what I've seen, still has some technical advantage over the Voigtlander.

I still have the SEM and Lux and believe it makes sense to keep both, but find I now mostly use the SEM. One reason is the better high ISO capabilities of the newer M digital bodies. Another reason is that the 28 Lux has become my all-round wide angle lens. Its wide open usefulness is great (either low light or shallow depth of field effects), where it's sharper than the 21 Lux with a much better mid zone area. Meanwhile its stopped down performance is very close to the slower Leica 28s. At least for me, 28 works better for people photography. It's also small enough to fit in my current camera bag along with the 21 SEM, 50 Lux ASPH and a 90 (either the Macro or Cron AA). The 21 Lux is not and requires a different, larger carry solution.

The lens collection I've settled into over the years is that of a single fast lens at 'middle' focal length of 28, 35 and 50mm, where the moderate size and weight penalty is offset by the flexibility of having to only carry one lens in that focal length. At the 'extremes' of 21 and 90, where faster lenses are considerably larger, I keep both a fast and slow version depending on the needs of a given outing. Slow for size, weight and great sharpness. Fast for low light or shallow depth of field effects. 

Hope this helps!

Edited June 26, 2020 by rscheffler

[Cobram]

14 hours ago, rscheffler said:

Over on the Fred Miranda forum, the forum owner tested the Nokton 21/1.4 M-mount version on the M10 at infinity and the performance was excellent across the full aperture range. Of course, that doesn't tell you everything about the lens, but it indicates excellent across-frame sharpness performance.

Back around 2012 with the M9, I was kind of in a similar situation to you in regards to 21mm... I had the ZM21/2.8 but it was a bit too slow for indoor low light people photography and ended up getting the 21 Lux. For that use scenario, I was very happy with the Lux. But it had other shortcomings, such as a significant dip in mid zone sharpness that negatively affected image quality when the subject was placed in the rule of thirds area. It also purple fringed severely in technically challenging high detail, high contrast situations at and near wide open. 

At one point I owned four 21mm M lenses: ZM21/2.8, 21 SEM, 21 Lux and Ultron 1.8. I much preferred the smaller size, flatter field of focus and low color shift of the SEM over the ZM. Between the Lux and Ultron, the differences were not that noticeable. IIRC, the Ultron's field curvature was not as annoying as the Lux, but it had strong purple fringing, which is not uncommon with fast non-APO lenses. Given I used a fast 21 more for near distance wide open type people photos, I preferred the Lux's rendering and kept it over the Ultron (I also didn't like the Ultron's permanent lens hood).

All that said, had the current Nokton 21/1.4 been available back then, I would have bought it hands down. Given the results I've seen from it in the Sony E mount version (the Leica M mount version appears to be properly Leica-optimized and therefore equally sharp on Leica cameras), it could be a great all-round 21mm solution, in respect to image quality from wide open through stopped down.

Given that it appears your priority for a 21mm lens is indoor people photography, IMO, the Nokton makes sense because it will also be excellent for any other outdoor, bright light uses. The tradeoff will of course be size and weight. Down the road you might find that there are enough situations where you don't want to bring a huge and heavy 21. For those times, the Voigtlander 21/3.5 might make sense. But the SEM really is a fantastic lens that from what I've seen, still has some technical advantage over the Voigtlander.

I still have the SEM and Lux and believe it makes sense to keep both, but find I now mostly use the SEM. One reason is the better high ISO capabilities of the newer M digital bodies. Another reason is that the 28 Lux has become my all-round wide angle lens. Its wide open usefulness is great (either low light or shallow depth of field effects), where it's sharper than the 21 Lux with a much better mid zone area. Meanwhile its stopped down performance is very close to the slower Leica 28s. At least for me, 28 works better for people photography. It's also small enough to fit in my current camera bag along with the 21 SEM, 50 Lux ASPH and a 90 (either the Macro or Cron AA). The 21 Lux is not and requires a different, larger carry solution.

The lens collection I've settled into over the years is that of a single fast lens at 'middle' focal length of 28, 35 and 50mm, where the moderate size and weight penalty is offset by the flexibility of having to only carry one lens in that focal length. At the 'extremes' of 21 and 90, where faster lenses are considerably larger, I keep both a fast and slow version depending on the needs of a given outing. Slow for size, weight and great sharpness. Fast for low light or shallow depth of field effects. 

Hope this helps!

Dear Rscheffler,

I think other will agree: This was the most comprehensive and valuable advice in this topic. Thank you very much for your help. I think everyone reading this topic (in process of buying 21mm lens) will benefit by reading your contribution.

Maybe you should consider to write a review of 21mm M mount lenses available in 2020 and publish it somewhere. I think you posess knowledge, experience and most important - you explain details in very understandable way.

As per lenses: indeed after reading all comments I was thinking to operate with 2 lenses in the future. First I plan to get Nokton and than after a year or more  SEM as well.

If I will come across a very good deal for used SEM I may buy it first.

Thank you again for very informative post 

[rscheffler]

21 hours ago, Cobram said:

Dear Rscheffler,

I think other will agree: This was the most comprehensive and valuable advice in this topic. Thank you very much for your help. I think everyone reading this topic (in process of buying 21mm lens) will benefit by reading your contribution.

Maybe you should consider to write a review of 21mm M mount lenses available in 2020 and publish it somewhere. I think you posess knowledge, experience and most important - you explain details in very understandable way.

As per lenses: indeed after reading all comments I was thinking to operate with 2 lenses in the future. First I plan to get Nokton and than after a year or more  SEM as well.

If I will come across a very good deal for used SEM I may buy it first.

Thank you again for very informative post 

Hi Cobram,

Thanks for the kind words. Back in 2012 or 2013 I indeed wrote and published a 21mm M-mount lens review, which is still online and may be found here.

The only thing(s) that have changed since are the recent introductions by Voigtlander. Based on the reviews and images of others, the CV21/1.4 is a very capable replacement of the 21 Lux from a purely technical standpoint. Having not yet had the chance to try the CV, I can't say for sure how subjective factors compare, such as rendering, color, etc. There's also the matter of ergonomics, size, etc. My feelings from images and reviews by others of the CV21/3.5 is that the SEM is still the better lens. It might be splitting hairs in some instances and therefore might not be worth the 2.5x price premium. If you're saving for the SEM, I would suggest finding a clean used copy, which should save you around $500.

Will I ever update the review? I'm not sure. They're a lot of work to put together...

Ron

[jdlaing]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Cobram]

Dear All,

Thank you all for your contributions. It was very very helpful.  

At the end I came acros a beautiful used CV 21 f4 Color Skopar and decided to try it. I was a little bit scared regarding my skills in handling 21mm lens (never shot with such a wide angle)...

I must say I'm really impressed by CV size, sharpness and handling (nice focus tab). 

I don't use viewfinder but instead rely on my "feeling" of the frame 🙂

Rendering is less contrasty comparing to Leica Summicron 28 or Lux or..., but I realised its lower contrast rendering is an advantage in bright sunny days. 

Definitely recommended.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Cobram]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Cobram]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[250swb]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:39 AM, pgk said:

No it isn't, but like new cars, used camera equipment depreciates quickly at first, then slows or in the case of Leica made M lenses, stabilises. They then start to appreciate, but generally slowly. Older none-Leica lenses, unless rare, continue to slowly depreciate in general. I'm talking about the long term though, and buying, using, selling and upgrading over many years has resulted in being able to build up a suite of equipment which I would otherwise have struggled to buy. This is my own experience - Leica M lenses do slowly appreciate, some more than others.

I like the idea that if I wait long enough a CV lens will have depreciated so much it costs nothing, but if I buy a Leica lens it will eventually be worth more than a brand new one. is that how it works? You see that is what happens if you use generalisations. Nothing is absolute and like the stock market it can look very different day to day. You base Leica lens appreciation presumably on desirability, but if the new Chinese manufacturers continue on their current trajectory how many people will think a very tiny marginal gain (if any) for Leica image quality is worth thousands of dollars? Similarly Leica could themselves devalue the whole of the M lens range by one day dropping the M mount. So which side of the depreciation/appreciation debate is going to be left with an over valued investment portfolio or lenses that daren't be used?

[pgk]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

..... if the new Chinese manufacturers continue on their current trajectory how many people will think a very tiny marginal gain (if any) for Leica image quality is worth thousands of dollars?

Many manufacturers build extremely good lenses. My experience has been that Leica lenses last well, can be repaired for decades and even very old lenses supply their users with great images. You can't value this easily, and its very difficult for another manufacturer (and Chineses manufacturers are already producing lenses which perform very well) to produce items which are guaranteed to have such characteristics. History suggests that simply producing good or even great lenses isn't enough to ensure their longevity or appreciation.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jdlaing]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!