21mm lenses

[Cobram]

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I posted similar question in another topic:

I'm thinking to buy wide angle 21mm lens and need feedback. Currently I really enjoy using my 28 Summicron and 50 ASPH Lux lenses.

21mm lens will be mainly used for family shots and some nature/landscape stuff. I performed basic research and realized that for around 500-1000 EUR I can get  Ultron 1.8, new Color Skopar 3.5,  new Nokton 1.5, used Leica Elmarit (old one) and new TT Artisan 1.5.  Too many options! :-)

Can you give me your experience about:

 - TTArtisan sharpness vs Leica/Voigtlander alternatives

 - new Voigtlanders?

 - is Leica SEM worth extra money?

 

Thank you for your help

[pgk]

Just now, Cobram said:

is Leica SEM worth extra money?

It is the finest 20/21 I've used so it depends on your viewpoint and whether you want to pay the extra money for it. Given your other two lenses I would say its is worthwhile but others will extoll the virtues of the other lenses that you mention.

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[Joakim]

The new Voigtlander Color Skopar 3.5 looks really good and is one I am really interested in myself. 

[Fedro]

the 21 SEM is very good and if you do "nature, landscape stuff" it shares the filters (E46) with your 28 Cron and 50 Lux

those 3 lenses (plus the 35 FLE, also E46 filters) would be a wonderful basic kit for any M

just my 2 cc

[lct]

6 hours ago, Cobram said:

 - is Leica SEM worth extra money?

Yes but difference is not huge with the CV 21/3.5.  You could be happy with the latter if you shoot raw provided you can stand its focus stick and glossy DoF markings. You will have to correct CA in PP though. 

[pmendelson]

The new voigtlander 21mm f/1.4 is amazing.   I had the SEM which is great and smaller and lighter, but a lot slower and more expensive.   I’d be happy with either. 

[Dennis]

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10 hours ago, Joakim said:

The new Voigtlander Color Skopar 3.5 looks really good and is one I am really interested in myself. 

+1

I feel my ideal wide angle lens (wider than 35) it would be the 24 Elmar. But because the price can't afford, according to my "deep" investigation around the web and here in the LUF, my next happy candidate for my M10 would be the Color Skopar 21 3.5 Asph. Because its performance, price and size.

[UliWer]

Very wide angle lenses on a digital M may cause problems: colour shift to magenta and/or cyan in the corners may occur and is not always ideally corrected by the camera's electronics. The M9 had severe problem in the beginning, which were - almost but not completely - solved by a firmware update, the M 240 is not really better, only the M 10 shows real improvement in this respect. Though it still does not work for all lenses, e.g, the old 1:3.4/21mm Super-Angulon is unusable with the M10 as with all other digital M models for colour pictures. 

So my advise is to look how different 21mm lenses cope with these problems. The 1:3.4/21 Super-Elmar M is certainly best optimized to avoid them,  others may be o.k. as well, but one has to test them or look at examples. 

Of course there is no problem if one wants to use the lens on film or for black and white photos.   

[AndreasG]

I use an Elmarit-M 2.8/21, Made in Canada 1990, uncoded with a M10-D, no color fringes etc. at all. Same with a Zeiss ZM Distagon 4/18, uncoded, no problem. Only a Voigtlaender  Super Wide Heliar, V1, 4.5/15 causes substantial color seams, which even in PP cannot be removed completely.

But I question whether a 21mm focal length is really suitable for family shots?

Edited June 13, 2020 by AndreasG

[lct]

13 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Very wide angle lenses on a digital M may cause problems: colour shift to magenta and/or cyan in the corners may occur and is not always ideally corrected by the camera's electronics. The M9 had severe problem in the beginning, which were - almost but not completely - solved by a firmware update, the M 240 is not really better, only the M 10 shows real improvement in this respect. Though it still does not work for all lenses, e.g, the old 1:3.4/21mm Super-Angulon is unusable with the M10 as with all other digital M models for colour pictures. 

So my advise is to look how different 21mm lenses cope with these problems. The 1:3.4/21 Super-Elmar M is certainly best optimized to avoid them,  others may be o.k. as well, but one has to test them or look at examples. 

Of course there is no problem if one wants to use the lens on film or for black and white photos.   

CV 21/3.5 on M240: 

CV 21/3.5 on digital CL: 

 

[Ko.Fe.]

As often, OP forgotten to specify which camera lens is going to be on.

Without it advises are not much relevant.

[Cobram]

lct: Thank you very much for your answers and help. Could you share with us CV 21 3.5 photo example related to CA problems? I want to understand how pronounced is the problem.

Pmendelson: Nokton 1.4 seems really a great option. Price is similar to used SEM. Can you share examples with us? I'm particularly interested in its drawing... Extra light stops benefit is my main concern due to my camera ISO capabilities - M-E (type 220).

UliWer/Ko.Fe.: your remark is very valid. I completely ignored this problem. My camera is M-E (type 220, similar to M9). Do new Nokton 1.4 and Skopar 3.5 exhibit color problems? Which lenses should be avoided?

 

Thank you all very much for your answers. Your help is much appreciated.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Cobram said:

lct: Thank you very much for your answers and help. Could you share with us CV 21 3.5 photo example related to CA problems? I want to understand how pronounced is the problem.

See: 

 

 

[Cobram]

Thank you for link. Very enlightening!

Maybe I'm just spoiled by Leica glass or biased but based on your photos seems sharpness of CV 21 is nothing special. I really like to take photos of trees and for my next project I plan to take photos of old people from my village under/near walnut trees which are typical for our village. I'm afraid CV will not handle foliage very well. 

Andreas G: your comment make me rethink about lens angle. Maybe 24mm will suit my needs better.

Thank you guys for all comments. Somehow based on all your feedback I plan now to save some additional money and look at 21 or 24mm Leica SEM or CV Nokton 21 1.4.

20 hours ago, pmendelson said:

The new voigtlander 21mm f/1.4 is amazing.   I had the SEM which is great and smaller and lighter, but a lot slower and more expensive.   I’d be happy with either. 

pmendelson: can you share with us your thoughts about sharpness, flare resistance between SEM and Nokton? From photos posted online I realized Nokton is indeed very good at near distances. How does it perform at infinity landscape shots? 

 

[jdlaing]

Look for a nice Konica Hexanon Dual 21-35mm lens. They are really nice and great images at both focal lengths.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Cobram said:

Maybe I'm just spoiled by Leica glass or biased but based on your photos seems sharpness of CV 21 is nothing special. I really like to take photos of trees and for my next project I plan to take photos of old people from my village under/near walnut trees which are typical for our village. I'm afraid CV will not handle foliage very well. 

My pics were just aimed at comparing two lenses (CV 21/3.5 vs CV 21/4) focused at infinity. Not sure my SEM 21/3.4 asph or Elmarit 21/2.8 asph would have done significantly better aside from CA.  

Edited June 14, 2020 by lct

[Ko.Fe.]

I have M-E 220 as well. I have new version of Nokton 35 1.4,  known as Nokton 35 1.4 II. Absolutely no color problems, lens is well corrected under old 35 Lux profile. Focuses accurately. At f@1.4 it is sharp in the middle and soft at corners.

Here is no problem reported with Color Skopar 21 3.5 on digital Leica M. Previous f4 version of this lens was reported to have problems in corners in earlier days, but if I recall it correctly it was resolved with M9 firmware upgrade and enabling UWA Leica lens profile. 

Personally, I'm trying to avoid heavy lenses on M-E for now. One of the lugs seems to show some wear. Perhaps after I used heavy 20 3.8 SLR lens on it.

BTW, I had Color Skopar 25 f4 II on Bessa-T and with film pushed @1600 it was not problem to use it indoors. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Ko.Fe.

[ianman]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:51 PM, UliWer said:

the old 1:3.4/21mm Super-Angulon is unusable with the M10 as with all other digital M models for colour pictures. 

Challenging, not unsusable.

M9, 21mm Super-Angulon f/3.4, developed with Iridient Developer, no correction.

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[jdlaing]

TTArtisans 21mm f/1.5

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jdlaing]

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