Leica 28mm Lens--Advice needed

[pippy]

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5 hours ago, adan said:

RE 28mm bokeh. Not always important, but......I've seen somewhat noticeably "frenetic" bokeh with the 28 Elmarits v.2/3 and some with the Elmarit ASPH...

Yes, adan, but as the OP mentions that their main areas of interest will be "travel, landscape and family" I suspect the inherent bokeh characteristics of a particular lens would be completely insignificant. I also find that if the out-of-focus background matter is the thing which captures the attention of someone looking at my snaps then, boy, it must be a crap photograph in the first place!...

Philip.

Edited April 1, 2020 by pippy

[BradS]

10 hours ago, adan said:

RE 28mm bokeh. Not always important, but depends on whether one can play in the 60" x 40" exhibition-print league - or not.

40x60...inches !?!?!?

Yup, you're right. That's way out of my league. 

With my meager darkroom skills, 8x10 is about the largest print I'll make from a 35mm negative.

Edited April 1, 2020 by BradS

[Stein K S]

15 hours ago, TJL said:

Thank you one and all for your insightful comments and good advice.  I like my Leica M4 and M10-P because they are easily carried, light and compact and fun to use.  I'm leaning towards the Elmarit because it would complement those attributes as well as produce crisp, clear landscapes and travel photography.  Maybe next year, when the economy recovers, I'll add a Summilux.

Thanks again.  The Leica forums are most instructive.

TJL

Your choisevis the v4 then...? 😏... if you feel that I am bugging you, that is not my intention... I had the asph, but never ever bonded. The v4 however, is possibly the nicest drawing lens I have...

And about size; I like M system among others due to small size. I do, however, feel that all those lenses like the 28 Elmarit v4, 28 Cron asph, 35 lux, 50 cron v4/5 etc etc (all representing more or less the same size & ergonomics) are all within the definition of being small & ¨M handy¨ enough... (lenses like the Elmarit 28 asph, Cron 35 v4 and Summaron 28 5,6 latest can be ¨unneccessarily small¨ in my opinion).

[fabior]

i have had ELMARIT-M III and it was a very good lens for me.  But  now have sell it and  have bought the new summaron 28 and than the summilux 28 . I like them a lot and I think is very good combination as I use summaron with its wonderfull rendering and color combined with an incredible size that give you the possibility to put the camera in a pocket. During the  day with light is good for all the kind of photo. But when I want be free to take pictures in all kind of light the summilux is fantastic. I use them with a m9 monochrom and an M10-D.  I add that sometime I put a 21mm finder with a do it yourself frame lines done with thin stripe of tape on the front to be able to frame better the picture.

 

[lct]

I wish Leica still makes as compact M lenses as it did in the past: 21/3.4, 35/1.4, 35/2 v4, 50/2 v4, 50/2.8, thin 90/2.8. Besides the 28/5.6 the only modern lens following this trend was the 28/2.8 asph v1 i believe but v2 is bigger. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by lct

[lct]

The Macro-Elmar 90/4 is compact too but slow. 

[pippy]

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35 minutes ago, lct said:

I wish Leica still makes M lenses as compact as it did in the past: 21/3.4, 35/1.4, 35/2 v4, 50/2 v4, 50/2.8, thin 90/2.8. Besides the 28/5.6 the only modern lens following this trend was the 28/2.8 asph v1 i believe but v2 is bigger. 

I agree. As it happens I have five of the ones you mention except my copy of the 21mm Super-Angulon  is the earlier f4 version which is even smaller than the f3.4 (and takes 'normal' 39mm filters) but is, erm, problematic (shall we say?) with colour-shooting digi-M's. Wonderful on the Mk1 Monochrom, though.

As far as the 28/2.8 ASPH I think the optics and the general body-size are pretty much the same but the v2 has a larger, screw-on hood with a cut-out to aid direct RF viewing because of the encroachment into the VF with the hood in place. I bought the v1 because even with the hood fitted finder-blockage is almost nil. And it is quite a bit smaller. I like small and good.

So here's a question if I may ask for advice and help from those better-informed in the technical matters of digi-sensors than myself (sorry if I am derailing the thread for a moment!)

My 21mm f4 S-A (the 1959 style) was only delivered a week or so before the lock-down so I've not really had a chance to use it at all. I know through tests that it does the expected 'browny-red-to-the-right-and-blue-to-the-left' banding with the colour sensor on my M-D Typ-262 and, equally, the very marked but perfectly normal vignetting - especially wide-open - on my Monochrom.

The question; If I convert the DNG files from the M-D to monochrome will they merely lose their colour-shift appearance at the edges and retain the original amount of shade or will the Bayer Array incompatibility mean that even when converted to monochrome the 'banding' effect will still rear its ugly head in the form of excess darkening at the edges of the frame (in addition to the ever-present vignetting) because the 'wrong' amount of RGB information is being sent to the individual pixels/lenses on the sensor-cover?

Please excuse my complete lacking of technical terminological thingymugiggery-pokery............

Philip.

Edited April 1, 2020 by pippy

[adan]

As to converting color 21mm SA pictures with stains to B&W, that depends on how you convert.

If you convert differentially for different colors (to simulate a red lens filter, for example) then the color bands may show - but subtly. The red bands will lighten, "opposite-red" bands will darken.

If you simply desaturate, there should be nothing visible except "normal" optical vignetting, as with the Monochrom.

That was my experience using a 21 Elmarit or 15mm C/V on an M9 (with early firmware that did not work correctly for the 21mm).

It should be remembered that the "color vignetting" with uncorrect superwides is not a loss of brightness - but a substitution of brightness onto the "wrong color" pixels due to leakage through the sensor structure.

[pippy]

Thank you very much, adan, for the reply!

"It should be remembered that the "color vignetting" with uncorrect superwides is not a loss of brightness - but a substitution of brightness onto the "wrong color" pixels due to leakage through the sensor structure."

This was the nub of my question. Might, for instance, a green-sensitive lens on the Bayer-Array transmit, to the sensor, an abnormally low tone-level-brightness for an element with a high percentage-value of red light in the visible spectrum etc? Or do the RGB-filtering lenses of the Bayer-Array not work in that way if a file is converted in a straightforward manner into a monochrome image?

Once normality (i.e. 'normalcy') returns I will endeavour to give said optic a thorough workout with the M-D!

Best wishes!

Philip.

Edited April 1, 2020 by pippy

[DwF]

FWIW here is an image made with the 28mm Elmarit v4. Not my go-to lens for bokeh but it sure is nice here.

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[adan]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

Might, for instance, a green-sensitive lens on the Bayer-Array transmit, to the sensor, an abnormally low tone-level-brightness for an element with a high percentage-value of red light in the visible spectrum etc? Or do the RGB-filtering lenses of the Bayer-Array not work in that way if a file is converted in a straightforward manner into a monochrome image?

This shouldn't happen - a Bayer-filtered color-sensor image gets demosaiced (shares and averages data between neighboring colored pixels to remove the Bayer color checkerboard pattern), regardless of whether or not it being processed for color, or for B&W.

It is not a factor of the filters. It is how the software (Adobe Camera Raw, LR, C1) is designed to act - averaging touching red and green and blue pixels to get one color value for all. And then, if desired, convert that one color to a gray of equal luminance (brightness).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing

It is one reason why a Monochrom (which can skip the de-mosaicing step, since there is no checkerboard of colors) will always be sharper, for a given sensor resolution. No blurring of values between neighboring pixels.

Edited April 2, 2020 by adan

[250swb]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:05 AM, pippy said:

If you are not going to be shooting at f1.4 or f2 and if we mainly consider the qualities of a lens' size; weight; sharpness; lack of finder blockage and cost then it's hard to argue against the Elmarit ASPH. If you don't need the extra f-stop or two which the Summicron and Summilux provide then it does everything just as well as the others but for a fraction of the size, weight, finder-blockage and price.

 

If the CV 28mm Skopar didn't exist I could agree with that. Yes, it's a rare lens and you have to search for them, but for size and weight it beats the Elmarit, and it isn't far behind a 28mm Summicron for sharpness at the pixel peeping level. Close focus is .7 meters and it will also fit an LTM body. My 28mm Summicron feels lonely left at home 😀

Edited April 2, 2020 by 250swb

[pippy]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

If the CV 28mm Skopar didn't exist I could agree with that...

Is that the brass f3.5 Color-Skopar, Steve? If so then I'm sorry to say I've never been able to try it but if it's better than the Elmarit ASPH it must be a superb performer indeed.

Strangely enough the second-ever lens I bought to go on my M8.2 was the CV 28mm f2 Ultron and it's a very capable performer. I was never much of a 28mm snapper and I acquired the Ultron becuse it became, effectually, a 35mm which was a focal-length I used often. Sadly - and like your 28 Summicron - since I picked up the Elmarit ASPH (V1) it, too, gets left at home all the time. Incidentally the Ultron also showed me that I didn't need f2 on a 28.

Philip.

EDIT : This one?

https://www.35mmc.com/26/11/2017/voigtlander-28mm-f-3-5-color-skopar-review/

With the brassed hood and the brassed Leica 1 Standard it is certainly a very pretty combination! Interesting to see (in the review) that when used on the M9 it has a similar - although not as pronounced - issue with colour-banding at the edges of frame which I experience with the 21mm f4 Super-Angulon alluded to slightly earlier. I'm guessing, because of this, that the Color-Skopar also employs a roughly symmetrical (non-retrofocus) optical formula?

Edited April 2, 2020 by pippy

[pippy]

8 hours ago, adan said:

...a Bayer-filtered color-sensor image...shares and averages data between neighboring colored pixels to remove the Bayer color checkerboard pattern...regardless of whether or not it being processed for color, or for B&W....It is not a factor of the filters. It is how the software (Adobe Camera Raw, LR, C1) is designed to act - averaging touching red and green and blue pixels to get one color value for all...

Thanks very much once again, adan! This ^ is the bit I didn't quite take-in before......even although I had already read-through the same wiki-link info............

If I ever get out for my government-sanctioned one-hour walkabout I'll take both bodies with me and rattle off some test-snaps.

Philip.

Edited April 2, 2020 by pippy

[250swb]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

Is that the brass f3.5 Color-Skopar, Steve? If so then I'm sorry to say I've never been able to try it but if it's better than the Elmarit ASPH it must be a superb performer indeed.

 

I wouldn't say it was 'better' technically, but it is smaller, it is lighter, and cheaper, there is no viewfinder blockage, and it's sharp across most apertures (falls down in the corners at f/3.5, then again at f/16. Yes it's made in brass unlike a lot of the CV range and it's just the 28mm lens I like to use most. I think most people who use it realise there is something a bit special about it if for nothing else that it makes an M body and lens pocket sized.

[Ouroboros]

28mm and similar angle of view across several formats is my favourite and most used focal length.  The CV 28mm f3.5 deserves it's reputation, it a fine lens.  I've said before on here that I never felt the need to replace mine with any version of 28mm elmarit,  it's that good. 

A few years ago I wrote a brief bit about it at the bottom of this page.

I also have the summicron v1 asph and  28mm summaron-m.  The CV 28mm color-skopar falls somewhere between the two in rendering and resolution.  It doesn't replace either of them for me, it complements them and I find it perfect on a Leica (ltm or M with an adapter) for hillwalking and travel with a 39mm filter thread set of lenses. 

CV 28mm color-skopars seems to be few and far between now, I suspect most people hang on to them with good reason.