Demise of the CL?

[nicci78]

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Facing revenue decline, camera manufacturers should be inspired by software developers. Going to subscription model ! 
Rent your camera for 3 years. After that time you will get the next model to rent for 3 years. 
And so on forever and ever. 
😅

Apple is kind of doing the same thing with its iPhone. Except that you can get out of the bandwagon and keep the last phone after paying two years of monthly fee. 
 

Kind of a nightmare or a dream. Depend of how you see things. 
Of course Leica should include Fotos Pro into the monthly fee. 😝

[Mr.Prime]

Apple wants to sell their hardware. It's the network providers that want you on the hook for two years. In Canada the network providers appear to have excessive pricing, especially compared with the UK. That's nothing to do with Apple though.

 

I don't want to rent my camera - just a personal choice. Although, buying and owning an M3 is akin to renting as I expect I could re-sell fairly easily, and without much loss.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Mr.Prime

[Dopaco]

Maintaining two similar small CL and TL2 cameras did not seem logical, one had to be sacrificed.

https://leicarumors.com/2020/03/04/leica-cl-camera-being-discontinued.aspx/

TL2, seems more adapted to the new times of smartphones and can work well, without buying the Viewer, which, if you consider it necessary, you can buy it later.

I think there will never be a TL3 with the built-in Viewer, space is limited. It is easier and less expensive to make improvements to the screen and the external viewfinder.

It is only my opinion based a little on logic and without pretending to be the best and true. Leica is supposed to have everything studied.

[jaapv]

15 hours ago, Mr.Prime said:

Apple wants to sell their hardware. It's the network providers that want you on the hook for two years. In Canada the network providers appear to have excessive pricing, especially compared with the UK. That's nothing to do with Apple though.

 

I don't want to rent my camera - just a personal choice. Although, buying and owning an M3 is akin to renting as I expect I could re-sell fairly easily, and without much loss.

Leica did offer a two-year financing plan in the past.

[colmac]

Why not red smoke Jaap?

[Mike1974]

hi 

For information Leica France stills offer a finance programme for 3 years .

have a nice day everyone 

[jaapv]

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12 hours ago, colmac said:

Why not red smoke Jaap?

The Bayer filter has more green pixels, and less red ones.

[Marckyokay]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

The Bayer filter has more green pixels, and less red ones.

I always thought it would be red smoke with a Leica logo being projected on it, similar to the climax of Inglourious Basterds. But I guess your more logical explanation defeats my daydreaming...

[Viv]

On 3/6/2020 at 7:15 PM, Mr.Prime said:

Apple wants to sell their hardware. It's the network providers that want you on the hook for two years. In Canada the network providers appear to have excessive pricing, especially compared with the UK. That's nothing to do with Apple though.

 

I don't want to rent my camera - just a personal choice. Although, buying and owning an M3 is akin to renting as I expect I could re-sell fairly easily, and without much loss.

Adobe lost me as a customer when they moved to the subscription model.

[jankap]

I - as an amateur - have the Adobe problem too. But the yearly sum is not that high.

[jaapv]

It is cheaper than the regular updates used to be. 

[nicci78]

On 3/7/2020 at 10:47 AM, Dopaco said:

think there will never be a TL3 with the built-in Viewer, space is limited. It is easier and less expensive to make improvements to the screen and the external viewfinder.

Sadly Leica has proved us, that they never bother to update their Visoflex. They are still happy to sell you a 6 years old Visoflex typ 020 with brand new M10 Monochrom. 
 

I really think that Leica should go back to previous strategy. Killing X line to create CL line was kinda a mistake.
They should now kill TL line and resurrect X line with an as small as possible, without EVF, X3 with 35mm equivalent lens, 24MP APS-C sensor and same battery as the CL. 

Like that CL2 can be slightly bigger to accommodate IBIS. 
 

Leica thought that nobody were interested in X line anymore. It was a wrong assumption. Almost nobody like an X 113 and X Vario as big as the Q ! X line has to be as small as possible. Just like X1 and X2. 
Look at Ricoh GR III success. There is a room for small pocketable APS-C compact camera  

Pancakes lenses will never be as small than a fixed lens compact X3 can be. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

Quite agree, The X1 and X2 were/are brilliant little cameras and deserve better. Why not maintain the size/shape and implement the TL2 sensor and user interface? Good as the TL(2) is, the sleek body design is not really "Leica" . I agree with Leica that it is not really worth it to upgrade the EVF, however the price should come down from the stratosphere.
And yes, some form of IBIS in a CL2, if only on TL level,  would not be a bad thing.

[nicci78]

Oh yes. X1 form factor is really good. It just have to be up to date. Old 16MP sensor with very slow AF and small low resolution 2.5” screen is not appealing at all in 2020. 
 

I would love an X3. Please no more 28mm equivalent cameras. Q, Q2, CL + Elmarit-TL 18 and all 28mm M lenses are more than enough ! 
 

Bring back a nice and very small 35mm equivalent camera please 

[jaapv]

35 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Oh yes. X1 form factor is really good. It just have to be up to date. Old 16MP sensor with very slow AF and small low resolution 2.5” screen is not appealing at all in 2020. 

Strangely - if one uses the camera, these drawbacks turn out to be irrelevant. Both usability and IQ are very good.

[lct]

Another chimping camera? Not sure to see the point. The Fuji X100V should inspire Leica if it did not already.

[nicci78]

X100 cameras are too big to be pocketable. 
Even LX100 II/D-Lux 7 are too thick. 
The goal is GR III size. X1 size should be okay too. 
 

X1/X2/M8/M9 2.5” screens are really bad. Always been. Even worst against 2020 standards. 
T & X cameras operations are too slow for my liking. 
Hopefully 16MP IQ is still superb. Except for high ISO. 

Another reason to bring back X line, is price : CL starter kit with TL 18 is 2999€ Which is way too expensive to replace former X typ 113 at 1850€ and X-E at 1550€ in 2014. 
 

By the way CL + TL18 is not pocketable : too thick and its EVF get in the way for fast storage. 
Being thinner and EVF-less T/TL/TL2 are more pocketable. But it is too slippery and still too large overall. 
 

Just an advise for next X3, please keep the pop-up flash ! Leaf shutter camera are best candidate for tiny low power flash. 
 

No need for huge f/1.7 Summilux-X 23mm lens. f/2.8 Elmarit-X should be okay if you add OIS. Or improved it to f/2.4 Summarit-X or even better to f/2.0 Summicron-X. If you can keep it tiny. 
 

Then price it 1990€ it should sell well. 
Of course Visoflex typ 020 is optional, because you like to sell those oldies. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by nicci78

[lct]

A chimping camera with a Visoflex then? Not sure to whom it would sell. Not to me anyway. The only compact fixed lens camera that could interest me would be really pocketable (the X1 is taller than my Lx100 which is too big already) and would have a built-in viewfinder. Something like this with an EVF instead of the OVF perhaps but it's just a dinosaur's dream .

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[nicci78]

I am not sure what the problem is. 
The battle is already lost. People are more than ready to use quality rear screen. A hint ? Smartphones and previously almost all compact cameras without EVF
I can take picture with EVF or with rear screen. Whichever is the more convenient in the moment. 
Having choice is good. But when I need pocket-ability. I rather choose no EVF than tiny bad EVF like the one in C-Lux...

 Of course I would be happy if Leica choose to produce tiny X3 with EVF but no rear screen. If it can help. But weirdly people will be mad about such thing. Way more than if X3 comes without EVF. 
 

 

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Hallo,

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[lct]

What you're describing here is supposed to compete with smartphones, a market place where the battle is (almost?) lost as well, but Leica makes the TL2 already. Or would you like a smaller TL3? Why not but what to do with this ridiculous (and then bulky) Visoflex on top of it? Just a dead end if you ask me but i'm no arm chair CEO so YMMvastlyV .