Let's have a look at some DNG files from the M10M

[snooper]

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So as expressed in another thread, since this camera went out, I feel stupid because I don't find the pictures we see all over the net as good as I would have expected them to be. To be more precise, I feel like the DR is shifted down. I don't have the camera, but after I mentioned that to my dear Paris dealer (best guys in France by the way, Suffren Photo, really good techs..) he sent me some files with a subject requiring a substantial DR. Like a bright sky, some whites, some blacks, etc.

So I got the files. Let's start by the OOC DNG plain export, no correction. Subject and composition is not the point here, and once again I did not take these pictures. What is red marked on this picture is the highest light, about clipping in LR. But.. Sky is not burned out. So in a way the exposure is correct. 

I was not looking at "quality", "sharpness" and other forum considerations that no jpg export will sort out. I'm just talking about how the camera is dealing with low / highlights inside a given scene.

 

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Edited January 24, 2020 by snooper

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[snooper]

Now of course the OOC file is not good, and I tried to move the sliders around to get something that I felt like being a better tonal mood for this scene. Paris is grey, but apparently, as seen from the far left of the shot, it was sunny or bright light.

I will post the sliders as well, and I don't find it normal to have to be with this much correction in LR. I have 3 other shots, same light, same need to push or pull the sliders almost all the way !

 

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Edited January 24, 2020 by snooper

[snooper]

So to get the above export, these are the settings. If I add just a bit of highlight, clipping gets in.

I understand I might be a total dummy, but on the previous Monochrom I owned and enjoyed, I never faced anything like this. 

Ok shoot me now 🙂

 

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Edited January 24, 2020 by snooper

[epand56]

I saw many different pictures from the M 10M and none of them was so dramatically different from any other picture I've seen converted from a color DNG. 
At 8350 €, to me it looks like a very expensive toy for maniacs.

[pedaes]

7 minutes ago, epand56 said:

At 8350 €, to me it looks like a very expensive toy for maniacs.

Ouch!

I personally don't see how we can make any judgements from internet images unless they are side by side comparison of a very enlarged small part of the total frame.

Edited January 24, 2020 by pedaes

[Herr Barnack]

12 minutes ago, epand56 said:

I saw many different pictures from the M 10M and none of them was so dramatically different from any other picture I've seen converted from a color DNG. 
At 8350 €, to me it looks like a very expensive toy for maniacs.

Viewing images on a computer screen is not the best way to evaluate them; that having been said, the advances in image quality that the M10 Monochrom offers may be more of a matter of degrees rather than a night and day difference. 

Not many people print these days, but I think that in the Leica lineup, M10M could be thought of as the premier camera for making fine prints.  

And yes, there's no two ways about it: 8350€ is a price tag that causes the knees to give way for most of us.  Leica M cameras and lenses are about passion, not about economic practicality. 

A Toyota Camry will get you to your destination with practicality.  A Ferrari 812 GTS will get you to your destination with passion, elegance and euphoria. 

[UliWer]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb snooper:

To be more precise, I feel like the DR is shifted down. ...

vor 56 Minuten schrieb snooper:

..and I don't find it normal to have to be with this much correction in LR.

 

I do not have any experience from other Monochrom versions.

Though when I compared the reaction of files from the M9 to photos of identical subjects with the same exposure from the M10 i found out that the M9-files reacted much stronger to correction in LR than the M10-files. At the same time the ability to restore clipped lights or to give more light to dark shadows was much smaller with the M9-files and you reached clipping or blacks without any details left much easier. 

What does this mean? My interpretation is, that the "latitude" of the M9-files is much smaller - in smaller space a little movement gets you closer to the boundaries. In larger space you have to move farther to get there.  So the need - and the ability- for stronger correction does not indicate a reduced DR but the opposite.

Is my interpretation wrong? Has the M9 a larger DR than the M10? My experience with both cameras speak against this assumption.

Edited January 24, 2020 by UliWer

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I do not have any experience from other Monochrom versions.

Though when I compared the reaction of files from the M9 to photos of identical subjects with the same exposure from the M10 i found out that the M9-files reacted much stronger to correction in LR than the M10-files. At the same time the ability to restore clipped lights or to give more light to dark shadows was much smaller with the M9-files and you reached clipping or blacks without any details left much easier. 

What does this mean? My interpretation is, that the "latitude" of the M9-files is much smaller - in smaller space a little movement gets you closer to the boundaries. In larger space you have to move farther to get there.  So the need for stronger correction does not indicate a reduced DR but the opposite.

Is my interpretation wrong? Has the M9 a larger DR than the M10? My experience with both cameras speak against this assumption.

Testing properly is really hard, photography or anything else. There are so many factors influencing an outcome.

Here is the comparison of PDR measurements of M9 vs M10 from a competent source:

PDR: M9 vs M10
 

[Viv]

Those photos are nothing special.

[Jeff S]

24 minutes ago, UliWer said:

What does this mean? My interpretation is, that the "latitude" of the M9-files is much smaller - in smaller space a little movement gets you closer to the boundaries. In larger space you have to move farther to get there.  So the need - and the ability- for stronger correction does not indicate a reduced DR but the opposite.

Yes, dynamic range and exposure latitude (as shot or via PP) are two different things.

https://wolfcrow.com/what-is-the-difference-between-exposure-latitude-and-dynamic-range/

But matters get more complex once things like contrast curve adjustments are considered.  Such adjustments are often desired when dealing with otherwise flat appearing out-of-camera files associated with higher dynamic ranges.

Jeff

 

[UliWer]

Thank you for this clarification!

I hope I may quote from the article in the link:

"Exposure latitude = Camera dynamic range – Scene dynamic range.  If you have a lot of latitude, you can control the look of the scene, especially its mood, in-camera. If the dynamic range of the camera is lower, then your exposure latitude is negative, which means you’ll need some kind of fill lighting or filtration. If the latitude is zero, then you’re a tight fit and there’s only one way to go (unless you add lighting or filters)."

Snooper did a lot to control the look of the scene. The scene had a rather large dynamic range. Would he be able to do so many shifts with the sliders if the camera dynamic range was low?

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

Getting hold of good DNG files for the M10M seems to be an issue. In another thread, @adan mentioned how bad the DNG files were on a site that he downloaded from — I don't recall which site. I just dowloaded two DNGs from something called the Photography Blog. Most of the DNGs for download are shot at f/2.0 and f/2.4 and most also have slow shutter speeds.

I downloaded two DNGs shot with the Summilux 35. The first one was shot at f/2.0 and virtually nothing was in focus. So, then I downloaded a file shot at f/11, but the shutter speed was 1/45 sec and there was both camera shake and subject motion. These files were useless. Im Lightroom, I noticed the same thing that @snooper did: it was very to do anything with the file without huge moves of the sliders — and the files didn't seem malleable at all — or is it an LR profile problem, although I don't imagine that should be an issue for this purpose?

Does anyone have the source for some good M10M files for downloading? It seems to me that Leica should provide this.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

[SrMi]

Please note that although LR can read M10M files, the camera is not yet officially supported by LR.

[Anika]

20 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Please note that although LR can read M10M files, the camera is not yet officially supported by LR.

will it be a notification when they are supported?

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, Anika said:

will it be a notification when they are supported?

Yes, typically an update announcement contains the list of additionally supported cameras and lenses.

[lct]

3 hours ago, snooper said:

Let's have a look at some DNG files from the M10M

Good idea but where are they?

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb snooper:

So as expressed in another thread, since this camera went out, I feel stupid because I don't find the pictures we see all over the net as good as I would have expected them to be. To be more precise, I feel like the DR is shifted down. I don't have the camera, but after I mentioned that to my dear Paris dealer (best guys in France by the way, Suffren Photo, really good techs..) he sent me some files with a subject requiring a substantial DR. Like a bright sky, some whites, some blacks, etc.

So I got the files. Let's start by the OOC DNG plain export, no correction. Subject and composition is not the point here, and once again I did not take these pictures. What is red marked on this picture is the highest light, about clipping in LR. But.. Sky is not burned out. So in a way the exposure is correct. 

I was not looking at "quality", "sharpness" and other forum considerations that no jpg export will sort out. I'm just talking about how the camera is dealing with low / highlights inside a given scene.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Please, check the FW the camera was using. Is it 2.12.8.0?

 

This is the first picture I took. EV set to 0.  It was taken with the 75 Noctilux wide open handheld at 1/12 sec. only. But I was sitting. Here is the link to download the DNG file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g31862478-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=NIma48PcsipMLAZwzCTZ7nRDcs0oss7sivrQOCmsVU8=

M10M + 75 Noctilux, exposure looks fine to me, tones look good.  

ISO 160 f/1.25 @1/12 sec. handheld

Edited January 24, 2020 by Chaemono

[insideline]

27 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Please, check the FW the camera was using. Is it 2.12.8.0?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

This is the first picture I took. EV set to 0.  It was taken with the 75 Noctilux wide open handheld at 1/12 sec. only. But I was sitting. Here is the link to download the DNG file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g31862478-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=NIma48PcsipMLAZwzCTZ7nRDcs0oss7sivrQOCmsVU8=

M10M + 75 Noctilux, exposure looks fine to me, tones look good.  

ISO 160 f/1.25 @1/12 sec. handheld

I have been very curios to see if someone was going to post a picture of the new M10M with a 75 F1.25 Noctilux as in concept this should be a stunning combination given the clarity of this modern lens along with its dramatic off focus falloff combined with the resolution of 41MP with no Bayer filters. Can you share how this lens is to hold on the M10M and how any other shots you may have taken look? I have only used the 75 Noct on an SL2 yet I always felt it would/could really come alive on a Monochrom so I would very much appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

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[UliWer]

Thank you very much for your example and the DNG!

In Capture One I measured the extreme right of the black edge of the table with 6 as the darkest spot and the reflection on the right corner of the Walter Vogel book with 255 and clipping as the brightest spot.

By reducing the lights by - 69 I got a max. of 250 in the bright spot with no clipping. I then enhanced the shadows by +52 getting 251 in the bright spot, the darkest was now at +14. I lowered the black with -10 - darkest spot at 13. Added clarity by 10: same results. No changement in exposure and contrast. 

At 300% magnification it is obvious that Chaemono needs more training for 1/12 sec handheld. I am not sure whether I can see any artifacts in the printing on the books, but if it was my M10 at 200% I would be very happy with this. At 400% there are obvious artifacts. 

Though I had two crashes of Capture One...

 

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb insideline:

I have been very curios to see if someone was going to post a picture of the new M10M with a 75 F1.25 Noctilux as in concept this should be a stunning combination given the clarity of this modern lens along with its dramatic off focus falloff combined with the resolution of 41MP with no Bayer filters. Can you share how this lens is to hold on the M10M and how any other shots you may have taken look? I have only used the 75 Noct on an SL2 yet I always felt it would/could really come alive on a Monochrom so I would very much appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

It’s a real breeze to use the 75 Noctilux on the M10M when the rangefinder is well aligned and mine is.  I’m not sure I’ll have anything worth showing with this lens any time soon, though. It’s the most challenging lens to shoot for me in terms of getting anything unique out of it, i.e. something I couldn’t have taken with the 75 Summicron-M or the 75 Summicron-SL at f/2 rather than at f/1.25, for example.  I only have one unique picture with it that couldn’t have been taken with any other lens and one good series of photographs taken wide open at an anti-police protest that I’m really proud of.  The rest is pretty much just snaps.  The APO 50 Summicron-M is a better match for the M10M, IMO.