epand56 Posted January 24, 2020 Share #21 Posted January 24, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 hours ago, Herr Barnack said: And yes, there's no two ways about it: 8350€ is a price tag that causes the knees to give way for most of us. Leica M cameras and lenses are about passion, not about economic practicality. Indeed it is. Since the M8, that I still have, the price of any new M camera following has grown of about 1000 € each time. I stopped at the M240 that was, if I remember, 6200 €. Now we are at 8350 € and, I suppose, growing. I'm almost sure that will take my M240 in the grave with me. Gave the M8 to my son. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 24, 2020 Posted January 24, 2020 Hi epand56, Take a look here Let's have a look at some DNG files from the M10M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
epand56 Posted January 24, 2020 Share #22 Posted January 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Chaemono said: This is the first picture I took. EV set to 0. It was taken with the 75 Noctilux wide open handheld at 1/12 sec. only. But I was sitting. Here is the link to download the DNG Not a bad picture for an almost 20.000 bucks combo. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share #23 Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chaemono said: This is the first picture I took. EV set to 0. It was taken with the 75 Noctilux wide open handheld at 1/12 sec. only. But I was sitting. Here is the link to download the DNG file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g31862478-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=NIma48PcsipMLAZwzCTZ7nRDcs0oss7sivrQOCmsVU8= M10M + 75 Noctilux, exposure looks fine to me, tones look good. Thanks for posting this. Indeed, the exposure looks fine. Just like in the files they sent me. But the corner of your black book is burned. And this is my point.. If you were to decide to expose that same scene in order to keep the highlight "manageable", I doubt the lowlights would be as good as they are in the DNG. Meaning you'd have to shift down the entire exposure. Knowing the light reflecting on the book / table is not the brightest sun ever... Do this outside, against sunlight - something you can manage with let's say a M10 or even a M9M ... As a consequence you'd have to bring the low lights up (as you exposed for the highlights) and this would give you a correct exposure but a narrower DR. And the exemple I used in the first post was shot "saving the highlights" as much as possible (you can see shapes of clouds, there is no HL clipping). Which is not the case on your file, as we have a couple of overexposed zones. Not saying that this camera is not capable to produce stunning images. Just saying I have questions about the highlights in the files it records on the card. Edited January 24, 2020 by snooper Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nowhereman Posted January 25, 2020 Share #24 Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, snooper said: ...Indeed, the exposure looks fine. Just like in the files they sent me. But the corner of your black book is burned. And this is my point.. If you were to decide to expose that same scene in order to keep the highlight "manageable", I doubt the lowlights would be as good as they are in the DNG. Meaning you'd have to shift down the entire exposure. Knowing the light reflecting on the book / table is not the brightest sun ever... Do this outside, against sunlight - something you can manage with let's say a M10 or even a M9M ... I find the same thing. The corner of the bottom book, as well as the reflections of this corner on the glass table, should not be specular highlights — and should not be blown to the degree that they require an underexposure of 1.1, which is what I find in Lightroom. This exposure looks fine to me — and at ISO 160, which has the greatest dynamic range, this blown highlight issue should not be happening. This issue has been raised elsewhere as well. Could it be related to the fact that the M10M is not yet supported by LR? I would think it's more likely to be a firmware issue, but am not knowledge enough to conclude that. In any case, I'm considering whether to buy an M10M or to continue converting M10 color to B&W, with which I've been happy. @Chaemono - is it possible you to shoot some the same scene with both these cameras and make the DNGs available for comparison?________________________Frog Leaping photobook Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 25, 2020 Share #25 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) vor 5 Stunden schrieb snooper: Do this outside, against sunlight - something you can manage with let's say a M10 or even a M9M ... It's been gray for a while here and the sun won't be out this weekend either. vor 5 Stunden schrieb snooper: But the corner of your black book is burned. And this is my point.. If you were to decide to expose that same scene in order to keep the highlight "manageable", I doubt the lowlights would be as good as they are in the DNG. Meaning you'd have to shift down the entire exposure. I think, I agree. But it's not a big deal. Yes, you have to shift down the entire exposure, set EV to -2/3 in order to protect highlights. You have to do this with the M10 IMO, too. Not so much with the M 246 nor the SL2. And it's not a big deal because the 'push-ability' (adjustment latitude) of these M10M files for shadows is amazing. The lowlights can't be pushed this hard with the M 246 nor the SL2 except at base ISO. I'm totally guessing here but I suspect that the S3 and the cut-down M10M/R sensors are BSI, likely manufactured by TowerJazz. I have only seen high megapixel ISO 3200 files that can be pushed this hard and still be so clean (with NR +20 in LR) with Sony cameras. I do have to check with the M10 though which is likely not a BSI sensor. I took a number of test shots yesterday with the M10M and the M 246 side by side in low-light, high contrast scenes but used different lenses stopped down as I didn't want to switch lenses all the time. Below here are a couple of them with the M10M first with links to DNG downloads. BTW, I really have trouble with the uploaded picture size on this forum now. For some reason I can't write the settings underneath a picture anymore without ISO appearing on the right side. Not sure what dimensions I should use to make use of the maximum resolution allowed and still fill the entire space. It used not to be this way, I believe. M10M + 75 Noctilux (1/15 sec. handheld may not be so sharp), link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g409061232-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=JIHnaeWZkTwnV1QpdsQ155POpPYLU4LpYAlMqJPRnuU= ( Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 160 f/4 @1/15 sec. handheld M10M + 75 Noctilux link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g247470452-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=IjuUzTq-0DD254HwVZFiRl8Y3jhm0nE-ac8sWzIj1U4= ISO 3200 f/2.8 @1/60 sec. Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 160 f/4 @1/15 sec. handheld M10M + 75 Noctilux link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g247470452-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=IjuUzTq-0DD254HwVZFiRl8Y3jhm0nE-ac8sWzIj1U4= ISO 3200 f/2.8 @1/60 sec. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305695-lets-have-a-look-at-some-dng-files-from-the-m10m/?do=findComment&comment=3898880'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 25, 2020 Share #26 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) And now one side by side with the M 246. See the difference in 'push-ability' of the files. The M10M ISO 3200 file looks amazingly clean (NR +20 in LR I suggest) when shadows are lifted to the max in LR and exposure is increased. You don't want to do this with the SL2 but you can do this with the α7R III/IV (BSI sensor). However, the M 240 and M246 are known for banding when exposure is lifted and shadows are pushed so I really want to compare with ISO 3200 M10 files. Leica only fixed the pushed shadows banding with the M10. I know that M10 ISO 200 and ISO 640 files can be pushed really hard but I'm not sure about ISO 3200 files. M 246 + 75 Summicron link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g119240063-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=1rfY7rYZnth9ZQUWfsPKkKi8jx9XwmEBfYC8JoXiIRM= Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 3200 f/4 @1/45 sec. handheld M10M + 75 Noctilux link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g391697609-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=6tVtoz_jQQELlIMISWbIdQI8zwC6NKU3xt8LdKhD3qY= ISO 3200 f/4 @1/45 sec. handheld Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 3200 f/4 @1/45 sec. handheld M10M + 75 Noctilux link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g391697609-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=6tVtoz_jQQELlIMISWbIdQI8zwC6NKU3xt8LdKhD3qY= ISO 3200 f/4 @1/45 sec. handheld ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305695-lets-have-a-look-at-some-dng-files-from-the-m10m/?do=findComment&comment=3898886'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 25, 2020 Share #27 Posted January 25, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 1 Stunde schrieb Nowhereman: [...] In any case, I'm considering whether to buy an M10M or to continue converting M10 color to B&W, with which I've been happy. @Chaemono - is it possible you to shoot some the same scene with both these cameras and make the DNGs available for comparison?________________________Frog Leaping photobook First, with what I’ll be shooting one won’t be able to see a difference that makes one consider the M10M over the M10 as the better ‘B&W’ option. I pretty much suck at B&W and I don’t print large. Second, the Monochroms can’t be explained rationally. Having all the color channels to work with in post may be a better option than having to use different color filters all the time. The M10M is either for people who “frequently shoot at night, or in dark spaces, or in areas of very high contrast” (what an excellent write-up here: https://www.ultrasomething.com/2020/01/paradox-view-the-m10-monochrom/) or for those who do landscape work with filters and print large. Third, I will shoot it side by side with the M10 in order to compare ‘push-ability’ of files. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 25, 2020 Share #28 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) Let's show two more, M 246 and M10M. Keep in mind, it's different lenses and they capture and treat light differently at f/2.8. The highlight on the right side appears to be more blown with the M 246. The difference in the center is just the way the 75 Nocitlux captures and deals with the light there, IMO. M 246 + 75 Summicron link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g254279954-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=DDYXpOATpYQbivJADCfZP-8PYQ7VusU7IMzuCRRTf_Q= Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 1600 f/2.8 @1/30 sec. handheld M10M + 75 Noctilux link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g15781480-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=oiLbmL3wdj6i3L3dXVaFUM3H0mR5OBW-hH_GYIxFCb8= ISO 1600 f/2.8 @1/30 sec. handheld Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 1600 f/2.8 @1/30 sec. handheld M10M + 75 Noctilux link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g15781480-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=oiLbmL3wdj6i3L3dXVaFUM3H0mR5OBW-hH_GYIxFCb8= ISO 1600 f/2.8 @1/30 sec. handheld ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305695-lets-have-a-look-at-some-dng-files-from-the-m10m/?do=findComment&comment=3898911'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 25, 2020 Share #29 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) vor 8 Stunden schrieb epand56: Not a bad picture for an almost 20.000 bucks combo. Someone made me buy them in order to support the local economy. The stuff is made or assembled near where I live. I'm sure you eat lots of mozzarella cheese but I don't comment on your weight. 😂 Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share #30 Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Chaemono said: Let's show two more, M 246 and M10M. Keep in mind, it's different lenses and they capture and treat light differently at f/2.8. The highlight on the right side appears to be more blown with the M 246. The difference in the center is just the way the 75 Nocitlux captures and deals with the light there, IMO. Thank you for showing these... Yes you are probably right for the Nocti, and on the M10M shot the details in the low lights are somehow impressive (the things you guys have on roofs for the snow ? I cant even name them: we don't have snow 🙂). I'm sure more tests will show up and will show us more details. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted January 25, 2020 Share #31 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, snooper said: e. But the corner of your black book is burned Are you serious? You seem to ask for a 20 Zone DR. This is way beyond what the human eye does. The highlight in the book is as we see it in ‘reality’, just as we cannot see highlight differentiations when we look into the sun. I do not think I would like the B&W photography you seem to strive for. Edited January 25, 2020 by otto.f 4 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share #32 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, otto.f said: Are you serious? Not really serious, just a plain amateur willing to learn from the pros. Welcome to Greenland, land of contrasts, where everything is either black or white (in Monochrom) as there is nothing really "grayish". M9M and Cron 28mm, no interest in this picture except that we are facing West, against the light, trust me a lot harsher in the upper right white layer of high altitude clouds than any bubble light you might have close to your books. The DR here is huge despite the appearances, there is no clipping at all and you get details from the lowest to the highest light. Now as I'm not serious at all, I accept and will learn from all whatever you'll say (you have to click on the image as the downgraded jpg does not do justice to the details). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 25, 2020 by snooper 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305695-lets-have-a-look-at-some-dng-files-from-the-m10m/?do=findComment&comment=3899005'>More sharing options...
benaparis Posted January 25, 2020 Share #33 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, otto.f said: Are you serious? You seem to ask for a 20 Zone DR. This is way beyond what the human eye does. The highlight in the book is as we see it in ‘reality’, just as we cannot see highlight differentiations when we look into the sun. I do not think I would like the B&W photography you seem to strive for. Agreed! I have this camera for almost 48H now, and I have already shoot in many situations (ie : front light, etc...) this camera is in every way better than any other M cameras especially regarding sensor performance (ie: dynamic range). I did not see less dynamic range than my M10 or 240. But we can discuss a thousand years until someone does a little scientific test, which I did according this method comparing my M10 and my new M10M : http://www.cmp-color.fr/dynamique_capteur.html (sorry it is in french). The result is that the M10M has a 0,57 EV (I averaged RBG chanels for the M10) better dynamic range than the M10. I can confirm you also based on the same method that base iso for the M10M is really 160 iso. The rest is only a matter of processing and mastering B&W output, this camera is just outstanding! Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted January 25, 2020 Share #34 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, snooper said: where everything is either black or white (in Monochrom) as there is nothing really "grayish". I see only greys. I learned at school that good B&W contains deep blacks and bright and clean highlights, both can be a lot better here Edited January 25, 2020 by otto.f Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted January 25, 2020 Share #35 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) vor 2 Stunden schrieb benaparis: Agreed! I have this camera for almost 48H now, and I have already shoot in many situations (ie : front light, etc...) this camera is in every way better than any other M cameras especially regarding sensor performance (ie: dynamic range). I did not see less dynamic range than my M10 or 240. But we can discuss a thousand years until someone does a little scientific test, which I did according this method comparing my M10 and my new M10M : http://www.cmp-color.fr/dynamique_capteur.html (sorry it is in french). The result is that the M10M has a 0,57 EV (I averaged RBG chanels for the M10) better dynamic range than the M10. I can confirm you also based on the same method that base iso for the M10M is really 160 iso. The rest is only a matter of processing and mastering B&W output, this camera is just outstanding! This is my observation too: The DR of the M10M is slightly greater than the one of the M10. May I in addition refer to my review of the M10M and show two JPG-versions of the same DNG. The first one is without any development. Parts of the sky are blown out (so the histogram in LR says). In the second one I reduced the highlight slider in LR to -100. To summarise it: The M10M cannot do any miracles but very good pictures. The initial photo of this post is not a good one to test the DR of a camera. The blown out detail will not look good with any camera. Edited January 25, 2020 by elmars 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted January 25, 2020 Share #36 Posted January 25, 2020 Without developement: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Highlights -100 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Highlights -100 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305695-lets-have-a-look-at-some-dng-files-from-the-m10m/?do=findComment&comment=3899083'>More sharing options...
snooper Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share #37 Posted January 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, elmars said: The initial photo of this post is not a good one to test the DR of a camera. The blown out detail will not look good with any camera. I'm glad I did not take that shot 😁😁😁 But don't get me wrong there, I just said I did not like much what was posted so far (much better over the last 24 hours) and also said that any exposure set for the highlights not to be blown was implying a significant raise of the lowlights in post. If you go down on the highlights and then have to go up on the low lights... Anyways... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted January 25, 2020 Share #38 Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, otto.f said: Are you serious? You seem to ask for a 20 Zone DR. This is way beyond what the human eye does. The highlight in the book is as we see it in ‘reality’, just as we cannot see highlight differentiations when we look into the sun. I do not think I would like the B&W photography you seem to strive for. I couldn’t agree more. 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
benaparis Posted January 25, 2020 Share #39 Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, snooper said: I'm glad I did not take that shot 😁😁😁 But don't get me wrong there, I just said I did not like much what was posted so far (much better over the last 24 hours) and also said that any exposure set for the highlights not to be blown was implying a significant raise of the lowlights in post. If you go down on the highlights and then have to go up on the low lights... Anyways... Like with any camera! Everyone knows or should know that Monochrom sensor does not have room with extreme high light because you don’t have filters that catch light differently. Like I said before compared to my M10 the M10M has better dynamic range, it is not based on biased appreciation it is mathematic that practice have quickly confirmed. In digital DR has never been in the highlight, it has always been in the shadows ; in this regard the new Monochrom is no different than any other camera. Ultimately it is only your processing skills that makes the difference provided you understand how your camera really works and your talent as photographer. Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 25, 2020 Share #40 Posted January 25, 2020 The trick is to use a yellow filter, pretty much always. This way one doesn't overexpose and one gets nice tonal separation. 😁 I seriously find that without it the tonality is off. See the books in the background in the first two less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-7XdTDJ/. The book at the bottom in the back is bright yellow, the book at the top black and white. Also, look at the tones on the truck. It was just opened in LR with default sharpening and Vignetting at +25, then cropped. The tones are delicious with the yellow filter, the detail on the headlights is insane. This is wide open. DNG download link in case you care: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g85710554-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=4YVlkOnvUfnUvqmToEFs5i7ElGHaw7mVQFYf2KnGOBA= M10M + APO 50 Summicron-M Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 160 f/2 @1/350 sec. Same as above cropped 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 160 f/2 @1/350 sec. Same as above cropped ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305695-lets-have-a-look-at-some-dng-files-from-the-m10m/?do=findComment&comment=3899124'>More sharing options...
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