Your opinion about the Leica M10 Monochrom

[mmradman]

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2 hours ago, adan said:

Leica is in the business of selling (being generous) 80% of their cameras to people who don't know how to use them. I think you can poke around on these forums and find many pictures even worse than those samples.

It would be "triggering" and degrading to those "users" to see samples significantly better than anything they will ever achieve.

(BTW, not something new - brochures from Leica over the past 50 years have often included poor-quality examples.)

 

Exactly my sentiment.

After I made initial post I had a thought; it is probably done deliberately as “mug” test to check reactions, I probably qualify as one of the suckers.  Hence the challenge, fit the IBIS or sales get it, I am not replacing what I have for the latest.

Edited January 22, 2020 by mmradman

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[Rosebud55]

I am not interested in the new monochrom as I am content with my M246.  I have had this great camera for a few years and am still learning how to get the best, for me, out of it. I just like the files produced and enjoy the B&W mindset. 

 

Rosie

[adan]

14 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Do I hear usual Leica user response, can’t be done 😂.

Nope. But it can't be done just by wishing on a star.

Look at your own evidence - the top view of the Z7. Where is the sensor plane? Answer: about 1cm behind the lens mount. –O– mark by the top control dial

The Leica M sensor plane is fixed at 2.775 cm behind the lens mount (as mujk says, although he dropped a cm somewhere).

Can't change that without throwing out 60 years of lenses. Or forcing users to get adapters (as for the SL) to use them.

You want to see Leica close up shop within 3 years? Have them require an adapter to fit M lenses onto an "M" camera.**giggle**

A Leica M will have: 27.78 shutter box depth, coupled RF/VF, external dimensions = Leica M4. Forever. Anything else, and Leica is D-O-A.

Anything that can be done within those restrictions is quite possible - but it takes more than wishing.

In a whole new design, there is more leeway for features. But it won't - functionally - be an M anymore.

Always remember that Leitz/Leica tried to "follow industry trends and pursue R&D in areas where they are likely to generate future sales," back in 1964. The result was the R system. Over the course of its lifetime Leiyz/Leica bounced from one financial crisis (and owner) to another, and they became financially stable in this millennium only once they threw that overboard (to wails and tears) and emphasized their unique product - the manual M rangefinder.

As someone at Leica (Stefan Daniels?) said at the time, "We cannot succeed by swimming with the sharks." (i.e. the industry trends; Nikon, Canon, etc.)

 

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

3 hours ago, adan said:

Anyone who wants IBIS in a M should explain exactly what Leica is supposed to throw overboard to make room for it. Especially in the already-packed M10...In-body image stabilization requires the lens to have a larger output image circle because the sensor is moved during exposure and thus uses a larger part of the image. Compared to lens movements in optical image stabilization systems the sensor movements are quite large....The SL and Olympus lenses are designed with that in mind from the beginning - but do you really want Leica doing surgery on your 2003 35mm Summicron ASPH to increase its image circle (assuming it's even possible, and for how much)? Hmmm?

The Ricoh GR III achieves IBIS together with a tiny size camera using an integrated lens, a smaller APS-C sensor and no viewfinder; but I wonder whether it also has a much higher degree of system integration than the M10/M10M. I'm thinking of the disassembly of the M9 someone did years ago, showing how it's electronics essentially were based a myriad of off-the-shelf parts that were physically wired together. I gather the M10-line has a good deal more system integration than that, but is there room for a great deal more — or would that require much more in R&D expenditure than Leica could muster for it's small sales volume?

If the answer is that there is little that can be gained in terms of size reduction of the guts of the electronics from further systems integration or that the R&D investment would be too great to make it feasible, then, I prefer to live without IBIS. But that also means, for me, that I should be shooting at 1/2f shutter speeds on my M10 and further entrenches me in the preference for a 24 MP sensor with larger pixels.

The other point of view is the one I mentioned earlier, in what David Farkas said in his second M10M video: that he shot the M10M at Auto-ISO with a minimum shutter speed of 1/250 — 1/5f for a 50 mm lens — because the high-ISO image quality of the M10M is so good that this is not an issue in terms of the output looking greatly different. As stated earlier, I prefer knowing the ISO I'm shooting at, but still wonder whether I'm being too finicky about this, considering that the difference in the image quality and noise will be visible only in the extreme ends of the light conditions so that, as Farkas implies, it doesn't really matter? Any thoughts on that?
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Frog Leaping photobook

[RexGig0]

Aspects of each of the first and third choices apply to me. If this M10 Monochrom is well-received, and remains wait-listed into 2021, as I suspect will be the case, and no financial emergencies occur, in 2020, the “too expensive” part will, probably, eventually, become less significant, allowing a purchase to be made.

I will not do as some are doing, now, trying to “dump” their 246 Monochroms on the evil bay.

[mmradman]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Nope. But it can't be done just by wishing on a star.

Look at your own evidence - the top view of the Z7. Where is the sensor plane? Answer: about 1cm behind the lens mount. –O– mark by the top control dial

The Leica M sensor plane is fixed at 2.775 cm behind the lens mount (as mujk says, although he dropped a cm somewhere).

Can't change that without throwing out 60 years of lenses. Or forcing users to get adapters (as for the SL) to use them.

You want to see Leica close up shop within 3 years? Have them require an adapter to fit M lenses onto an "M" camera.**giggle**

A Leica M will have: 27.78 shutter box depth, coupled RF/VF, external dimensions = Leica M4. Forever. Anything else, and Leica is D-O-A.

Anything that can be done within those restrictions is quite possible - but it takes more than wishing.

In a whole new design, there is more leeway for features. But it won't - functionally - be an M anymore.

Always remember that Leitz/Leica tried to "follow industry trends and pursue R&D in areas where they are likely to generate future sales," back in 1964. The result was the R system. Over the course of its lifetime Leiyz/Leica bounced from one financial crisis (and owner) to another, and they became financially stable in this millennium only once they threw that overboard (to wails and tears) and emphasized their unique product - the manual M rangefinder.

as stated in previous post I use extremely high shooter speed as much as possible and let auto ISO takes care of the rest, who needs 

As someone at Leica (Stefan Daniels?) said at the time, "We cannot succeed by swimming with the sharks." (i.e. the industry trends; Nikon, Canon, etc.)

 

 

If we were discussing whether Earth is flat or round , say several centuries ago, and I advocated it is round you probably would win the argument with your well presented facts and figures. Therefore I am not going to argue, only state let’s see what future brings, it is for Leica to pursue own business interest. If a feature is perceived as must have to survive there will be the way.

Edit

As stated in previous post, Nowhereman #84, wide iso range is good antidote to the lack of ibis, I use high shutter speeds and let auto iso take care of the rest, which works well with M246, we all crave for grainy monochrome. Conversely, for colour i think IBIS is advantageous as shooting at lower iso is desirable feature.

Edited January 23, 2020 by mmradman

[Guest BlackBarn]

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4 hours ago, adan said:

Leica is in the business of selling (being generous) 80% of their cameras to people who don't know how to use them. I think you can poke around on these forums and find many pictures even worse than those samples.

That might have something more to do with ‘eye’ than camera. I’d rather look at photos composed and shot with heart than those purporting to the technical.   If a camera in the hand makes the user observe more and encourages the need to express then I believe that trumps technical know how  - accepting of course that the stronger the technique the more options one creates for self expression.

I don’t feel Leica’s strength is in competing on the technical front but more to do with producing a product which feels right in the hand and a pleasure to use which in turn encourages photography......may not be  a strong enough reason for some but that is the primary reason why I own one.

[shirubadanieru]

Discussing IBIS still? If you want IBis, video recording, the latest tech just get a Sony or the SL. 

The M series is supposed to celebrate the art of shooting photography with the only three things you need: ISO, Aperture, Shutter speed. I hope there will never be a M with EVF, video, blah blah blah... the closest it gets to a film Leica the better. To me the Monochrom would have been even much better if it had kept the m10d design philosophy. That’s the point of the M series for me and why it’s so unique in today’s market. I never had any issues shooting with 1/15, 1/30 on any Leica, and I’m sure the M10M will be just fine too. 

[Jerry Ram]

It is never the camera, but what is behind the camera!

It is not the scalpel, but who is holding it!

 

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

Neither of the bromides in the last two posts negate the fact that going from shooting, say, Tri-X at a minimum shutter speed of 1/f requires one to go to 1/2f for the 24 MP of the M10 and to 1/4f for the 41 MP of the M10M to avoid camera motion blur, as discussed in the Gregory Simpson review that I linked earlier. Shooting at 1/15 is not the same "on any Leica". There is also the issue of minor focus errors being magnified at 41 MP,  no matter how much you want "to celebrate the art of shooting photography with the only three things" ISO, aperture, shutter speed.
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Frog Leaping photobook

Edited January 23, 2020 by Nowhereman

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

Neither of the bromides in the last two posts negate the fact that going from shooting, say, Tri-X at a minimum shutter speed of 1/f requires one to go to 1/2f for the 24 MP of the M10 and to 1/4f for the 41 MP of the M10M to avoid camera motion blur, as discussed in the Gregory Simpson review that I linked earlier. Shooting at 1/15 is not the same "on any Leica". There is also the issue of minor focus errors being magnified at 41 MP,  no matter how much you want "to celebrate the art of shooting photography with the only three things" ISO, aperture, shutter speed.
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Frog Leaping photobook

Assuming that your output is at the same size, higher resolution does not require higher shutter speed to eliminate camera shake.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Jerry Ram said:

It is never the camera, but what is behind the camera!

It is not the scalpel, but who is holding it!

 

 

Tools matter. Be it for woodworking, making music or taking pictures. Not everyone shares the same preferences for a specific tool, though.

[Guest Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Assuming that your output is at the same size, higher resolution does not require higher shutter speed to eliminate camera shake.

Here is what Gregory Simpson writes in his review:

Quote

I was also somewhat concerned all this extra resolution would mean blurrier photos. Granted, since I rarely bother to stop walking when I shoot, all my photos tend to be a bit blurry already — so my trepidation was admittedly rather benign. But what if I did want a sharply focussed photo? Would I be able to handhold the camera and still extract all that extra edge sharpness afforded by the new sensor? Basically, as we know, the higher the resolution, the more susceptible an image is to slight amounts of motion blur. The old “set the shutter speed to 1/f” rule was long obliterated. With the previous generation, I was more inclined to an absolute lower limit of 1/2f. With the M10 Monochrom, 1/4f is the more practical choice for handheld shots with maximum sharpness. Fortunately, this new sensor actually exhibits much better shadow detail, lower noise, and improved high ISO performance, so the cautiously faster shutter speeds are easily compensated.

@SrMi - Do you think that is wrong?
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Frog Leaping photobook

Edited January 23, 2020 by Nowhereman

[Ko.Fe.]

So, Bresson and Winogrand pictures are no good anymore, no ibis was in use.

Roots of Leica RF photography are with pre war Olympics, travel and reportage which is continued by few now. Somehow entire Americans was taken with no IBIS Leica.

But these days, no-no-no, it is IBIS a must, days of motion blur from moving objects, not camera and higher ISO to prevent it are over.

Why not GRIII then? It still has so-so high ISO, but with IBIs, low ISO and scenic sunset, it is good!

At some point I realized why street photography with moving people is so gritty from GR users. It just doesn't have clean enough ISO for high shutter speed and not s16 light.

Honestly, I checked on GR III just few days ago. Oh and on my Oly E-PL1 I turn ibis off for street photography.

Still portraits with Monochrome? I don't know... How HCB managed it with Inner Silence...

 

[SrMi]

34 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Here is what Gregory Simpson writes in his review:

@SrMi - Do you think that is wrong?
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Frog Leaping photobook

Well, we both may be right, depending what he exactly means. If you pixel-peep and if higher resolution means that you must print larger prints, then he is right. However, if you continue to share your photos on Instagram or print books or images at same dimensions, then he is wrong.

 

 

[SrMi]

Regarding the opinion about M10M:

I always wanted a Monochrom, but waited for one that is based on M10. Higher resolution is an unexpected benefit. Higher usable ISO is a great benefit.

I wonder how many first-time Monochrom owners are here on the forum. 

[adan]

Having made the point that Leica doesn't have much room to add analog IBIS (moving parts) - they may do the Leica thing, "think different" and figure out a computational algorithm  to remove camera shake.

Three-axis accelerometers (not that big) plus deconvolution processing based on known lens type/angle of view, shutter speed, etc. to remove motion streaks.

Sort of like 6-bit coding - "We can't add electrical contacts to ID lenses like everyone else - so we'll just add black and white dots and an optical detector."

[IkarusJohn]

I voted for not interested, not because I don’t think it’s an interesting camera.  I do.  Not because it has more pixels; I don’t.  It just seems like a nice development of a very nice camera.

The reason I’m not interested is twofold:

(1) I’m not an upgrader.  Yes, I’ve sold Leica cameras and lenses in the past, but not because something better has come along, but because I came to the conclusion that those cameras or lenses were not for me. 

(2) I’m very emotionally invested in my Monochrom “Henri”.  When it was released, I was scornful of the idea, then I played with Jono’s DNG files, and I was hooked.  I battled with Leica to honour its commitment to provide me with a silver chrome version (another story, but they conceded that they had a binding contract with very bad grace), and that camera has the new sensor, and a new leather skin.  I’m very attached to it, and there’s nothing in the new M10-M which induces me to part with a perfectly good camera (though battery compatibility is attractive).

That said, it looks like a lovely camera, despite having more pixels than I need.  I hope it’s a raging success, and if I didn’t already have a Monochrom, I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[evikne]

2 hours ago, adan said:

they may do the Leica thing, "think different"

Yes, it's not just Apple that has the ability to "think different". 😉

Edited January 23, 2020 by evikne

[shirubadanieru]

8 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

Neither of the bromides in the last two posts negate the fact that going from shooting, say, Tri-X at a minimum shutter speed of 1/f requires one to go to 1/2f for the 24 MP of the M10 and to 1/4f for the 41 MP of the M10M to avoid camera motion blur, as discussed in the Gregory Simpson review that I linked earlier. Shooting at 1/15 is not the same "on any Leica". There is also the issue of minor focus errors being magnified at 41 MP,  no matter how much you want "to celebrate the art of shooting photography with the only three things" ISO, aperture, shutter speed.
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Frog Leaping photobook

I shot the M9M, M10 at 1/15, 1/30 with 35mm lens and never had issues with blurred shots, but then again I don’t pixel peep or do large prints, I’m guessing only these two groups of people would be the ones worrying about that with any Leica camera