SL2 and GPS tagging

[hotshew]

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13 minutes ago, Manicouagan1 said:

The camera manufacturers don't want to antagonize those countries.  The only two recently released full frame cameras with GPS seem to be the Pro-sports oriented Canon 1Dx Mark III and the Nikon D6. 

Interesting insight regarding legality of satnav in some countries, but this could be easily dealt with in software. I.e., the GPS system simply ceases to function in such regions, similar to how drones won't fly into restricted airspaces. Of course, anything can be illegally circumvented but once a person crosses the line all bets are off anyway.

There's also the Hasselblad X1Dii. Granted, it's an MF system, but it's also case where they've bucked the trend by adding integrated GPS into the new model. I applaud Hasselblad for this decision.

For me, Geotagging is a high value feature that drives my decision making process. IMO, the SL2 would have been the the perfect landscape camera had it included GPS like the SL. It's still a great camera of course :-) but it was frustrating to see Leica get so close and then drop the ball in the end zone.

 

[hirohhhh]

43 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I doubt that the GPS was removed because of the 'hump.' Has Leica commented on the reason for removal in SL2?
You can start the GPS tagging app in the morning and let it run the whole day. It does not consume the phone battery that much. It is still not as convenient as the built-in one.

If only is that reliable that works throughout the day without disconnecting. Whenever I tried Fotos app, it worked after third attempt to connect, and it usually ended with me deleting the app after 5 minutes.  So yeah, it's possible but far from convenient.

[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

If only is that reliable that works throughout the day without disconnecting. Whenever I tried Fotos app, it worked after third attempt to connect, and it usually ended with me deleting the app after 5 minutes.  So yeah, it's possible but far from convenient.

I am not thinking of Fotos app, but of a third party app , running on smartphone collecting coordinates and timestamps in a GPX file that you can use in LrC to tag the photos.

[US00678]

Hi there, in the past days I’ve deep dived the external app + gpx file + geotagging batch. In the CL forum I read about gps4camera, tested it, actually the script to add the gps data to the pictures was not working, but after some email with the app programmer, now is fixed and you could easily add gps data both to jpg and dng in post processing.

As the new script was exchanged via mail and yet published in the app site, I was just waiting for the official update to share the experience, take this as preview...

[Manicouagan1]

It is apparent from the difficulties using FOTO's and  a very similar experience with Nikon's SnapBridge that linking cell phones to cameras for navigation and location taging of photos is hard  to do.  Realize that  to make the system work three radio frequency receivers have to maintain a signal lock: 1) the GPS receiver in the cell phone, 2) the bluetooth or WiFi receiver in the camera and 3)  the bluetooth or WiiFi receiver in the Cell phone.  Each of these receivers has to sort out the signal given the usual complications temporary interruptions due to physical barriers between the transmitter and the receiver as well as of multi-path effects not to mention inherent noise present in any signal.  Power limitations in the camera and cell phone require  time out functions to preserve battery life.  Apparently these time outs interrupt the continuity of communication in such a way that the complete signal path can't be readily restored.    In theory all these limitations would seem to be possible to overcome, but performance of FOTO's and SnapBridge suggest that converting theory to practice was beyond the state of the art when the SL2 system design was locked down.  The technical limitations were apparently not understood until the testing phase.  By then I suspect that there was hope that the software team could solve the loss of connection problem with changes in the FOTO's application in the cell phone, camera or both..  Obviously they did not.    But with software there is always hope of a solution in another version if management will pay for it.  

[SrMi]

35 minutes ago, Manicouagan1 said:

It is apparent from the difficulties using FOTO's and  a very similar experience with Nikon's SnapBridge that linking cell phones to cameras for navigation and location taging of photos is hard  to do.  Realize that  to make the system work three radio frequency receivers have to maintain a signal lock: 1) the GPS receiver in the cell phone, 2) the bluetooth or WiFi receiver in the camera and 3)  the bluetooth or WiiFi receiver in the Cell phone.  Each of these receivers has to sort out the signal given the usual complications temporary interruptions due to physical barriers between the transmitter and the receiver as well as of multi-path effects not to mention inherent noise present in any signal.  Power limitations in the camera and cell phone require  time out functions to preserve battery life.  Apparently these time outs interrupt the continuity of communication in such a way that the complete signal path can't be readily restored.    In theory all these limitations would seem to be possible to overcome, but performance of FOTO's and SnapBridge suggest that converting theory to practice was beyond the state of the art when the SL2 system design was locked down.  The technical limitations were apparently not understood until the testing phase.  By then I suspect that there was hope that the software team could solve the loss of connection problem with changes in the FOTO's application in the cell phone, camera or both..  Obviously they did not.    But with software there is always hope of a solution in another version if management will pay for it.  

Nikon's SnapBridge works pretty well for me.

[hotshew]

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53 minutes ago, Manicouagan1 said:

The technical limitations were apparently not understood until the testing phase.  By then I suspect that there was hope that the software team could solve the loss of connection problem with changes in the FOTO's application in the cell phone, camera or both..  Obviously they did not.    But with software there is always hope of a solution in another version if management will pay for it.  

A better approach would have been for Leica to keep the integrated GPS receiver and augment it with a smartphone connection. This would help ensure a reliable signal while outdoors (i.e., when persons are most likely to want GPS tagging) while also enabling tagging in scenarios were a GPS fix is not possible (indoors, under cover, etc.). It would have also enabled Leica to work through connectivity issues without regressing functionality already found in the SL2's predecessor. At the SL2's price point, the added cost shouldn't have been an issue (or Leica customers not likely sensitive to the added costs if passed on).

As is often the case with software development, taking a dependency on external software or hardware leads to integration challenges. Smartphones in particular are a challenge because they're a constantly moving target as major software updates are applied annually, and are subject to policy changes addressing privacy concerns and security threats. In other words, even if you have it working reliably today, that could all change tomorrow. For something like GPS tagging, the smartphone provides very little incremental value over what an integrated receiver can provide and is not worth the tradeoff (unless to complement the receiver as previously indicated). For other things, like remote control and posting to Instagram (i.e., that are interactive), the smartphone is a great solution.

 

[caissa]

On 9/5/2020 at 2:24 AM, hotshew said:

Yep, no integrated GPS receiver means SOL.

Naturally, you'd be right to assume the SL2 includes GPS given its presence in the SL. It seems Leica naively thought they could replace an integrated hardware solution with a smartphone app, they removed it as cost cutting measure, or they decided to let function follow form because some people complained about the hump on the SL.

It's unfortunate because the SL2 would otherwise be a no compromises landscape camera, with its ruggedness, weather sealing, and high MP sensor. IMO, Leica showed poor judgement in their decision to remove GPS. As a consolation prize to SL2 owners, it would be nice if Leica can provide a hotshoe GPS module similar to the original Hassy X1D (which Hassy upgraded to included integrated function in the v2 model), the Canon EOS R5, and of course the M10 (via the EVF).

With the SL many users commented that usually they turn gps off to save energy. Probably most users had it always turned off.  Many commented that they would rather like IBIS than gps. Leica who listened to customers wishes therefore thought gps is not crucial and removed it.  (It probably also made the camera cheaper, the SL2 is clearly less expensive than the SL was.)

If you look at the comments in this forum, very few users complain about the missing gps. There were maybe more complaints about the missing 3rd dimension in the SL. If you really need it, there are several ways to solve the problem. One could be to use the old SL (with a control photo) to get the gps coordinates and at the same time as backup camera.  (This is not convenient for hikers, but I wonder how many photographers reach their destination by car or other vehicle. Very few on foot.)

[hirohhhh]

19 minutes ago, caissa said:

With the SL many users commented that usually they turn gps off to save energy. Probably most users had it always turned off.  Many commented that they would rather like IBIS than gps. Leica who listened to customers wishes therefore thought gps is not crucial and removed it.  (It probably also made the camera cheaper, the SL2 is clearly less expensive than the SL was.)

If you look at the comments in this forum, very few users complain about the missing gps. There were maybe more complaints about the missing 3rd dimension in the SL. If you really need it, there are several ways to solve the problem. One could be to use the old SL (with a control photo) to get the gps coordinates and at the same time as backup camera.  (This is not convenient for hikers, but I wonder how many photographers reach their destination by car or other vehicle. Very few on foot.)

And here is the other half of many users who didn't commented they turn gps off, now complaining for the missing feature

[hotshew]

5 hours ago, caissa said:

With the SL many users commented that usually they turn gps off to save energy. Probably most users had it always turned off.  Many commented that they would rather like IBIS than gps. Leica who listened to customers wishes therefore thought gps is not crucial and removed it.  (It probably also made the camera cheaper, the SL2 is clearly less expensive than the SL was.)

If you look at the comments in this forum, very few users complain about the missing gps. There were maybe more complaints about the missing 3rd dimension in the SL. If you really need it, there are several ways to solve the problem. One could be to use the old SL (with a control photo) to get the gps coordinates and at the same time as backup camera.  (This is not convenient for hikers, but I wonder how many photographers reach their destination by car or other vehicle. Very few on foot.)

It's harder to remove a feature than add one from customer satisfaction perspective. We can only speculate if Leica did their homework -- monitoring forum feedback is a helpful but insufficient. Regardless, just making my voice heard and there are clearly other customers who care about it. A few other comments:

- Having IBIS and GPS is not mutually exclusive. People often turn off IBIS when mounting on a tripod. There's a time and place for everything.

- Leica didn't remove the geotagging feature from the SL2. Rather, they replaced a reliable solution with an unreliable one.

- Agreed there are ways to workaround the issue -- none as easy and good of an experience as in-camera tagging.

- Less expensive is always nice, but I would have happily paid the extra $10-$30 USD (est.) on a $6K camera if cost was the reason for abandoning GPS. I can, of course, only speak for myself.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by hotshew

[caissa]

As you all know the price difference is much bigger. (customization and very small numbers and software integration). And as stated before, when the SL had it in body, many were not satisfied with it. Now the SL2 has a different version, and again many are not happy with it.    The typical user case for Leica ....   There is always somebody who finds fault.  

Simply said: You do not need to convince me, I have a workaround. There are currently many (MANY) other (unsolved) problems that I am more interested in and that I find more serious. But I find many comments regarding Leica in this case simply unfair.   (Some would say first world problems.)

Make the best of it, because if you don't who else will ?  Better invest the time in checking the alternative methods. 

It will be interesting to see what Leica will do in the future SL3. In the meantime you could use a S3 (I do not know if the users are happy) or a dedicated gps system with the corresponding software. Or ask the phone developer to implement a mode that keeps the gps app active in the foreground longer than only 2 minutes (Should be easy to implement and costs probably only a few cents per phone). Hopefully Leica survive the crises strong enough to produce a SL3 ....   and that they bring soon the missing SL primes.

Or you could ask Panasonic to implement gps. (to be part of the base hardware)

Edited September 9, 2020 by caissa

[hirohhhh]

Certainly not the feature that will make your photography better, but it's kinda very useful tool for the digital era, where having a catalogue of 100k photos is completely normal

[marcolinger]

I do not agree. This future was sold with the camera and after 10 months still is not delivered ! If one needs it or not is definitly not a valid excuse not to deliver what has been paid for. Shame on Leica.

[hotshew]

@caissa, you're assuming I'm unhappy with the camera (or at least that how I read it). Quite the contrary actually. The SL2 is perhaps the nicest and most versatile camera I've ever owned. The ergonomics and industrial design are second to none, except for possibly the X1D. IMO, of course. In fact, if the SL2 had a focusing system on par with Canon or Sony, and reliable GPS tagging 🙂, then I would consider it "the perfect camera". But such unicorns do not exist.

I was aware the SL2 forwent a GPS receiver prior to purchase -- and that using a smartphone as a proxy is unreliable. GPS tagging was and still is not a deal breaker for me.

Yes, complaining about lack of GPS tagging is a first world problem, as is anything having to do with the SL2 or Leica brand in general. The alternative is to shut-up and put-up, which I firmly believe would be disservice to Leica, assuming they're listening to their customers. Customers shouldn't have to "work around" problems. If you're working around the unreliable GPS tagging issue, then you're acknowledging the feature has value. Hopefully Leica will take this feedback and continuously improve so that they can stay relevant in an increasingly competitive marketplace.

-Roland.

[skovbo13]

This is a fairly old thread, but I thought I would nonetheless share my experience with the SL2's advertised GPS function.

For me, geotagging was one of the deciding factors (among others) to sell my M10 and get the SL2 instead. I was aware that the camera needs to be connected to the Fotos app, instead of relying on built-in hardware, and trusted Leica that their advertised solution would work. I am currently in the middle of a project which entails taking hundreds of location photos a day, some of which will need to be associated with precise points on geographical maps later. Given that I have not yet managed to have a single image include GPS coordinates in the exif data, the SL2 has proven entirely useless in this regard. It does take pictures just fine; thank god for that.

I contacted Leica customer service about this and received this reply: 
"The developers looked at the data. Unfortunately, we don't have a solution at the moment, as the settings in Leica FOTOS are correct.
The geotagging function is being investigated further and improvements are being made."

As a longtime Leica user, I find this deeply disappointing. If the geotagging function is not yet 100% reliable or (as in my case) entirely non-existent, it should not be mentioned in the camera's technical specifications.

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, skovbo13 said:

This is a fairly old thread, but I thought I would nonetheless share my experience with the SL2's advertised GPS function.

For me, geotagging was one of the deciding factors (among others) to sell my M10 and get the SL2 instead. I was aware that the camera needs to be connected to the Fotos app, instead of relying on built-in hardware, and trusted Leica that their advertised solution would work. I am currently in the middle of a project which entails taking hundreds of location photos a day, some of which will need to be associated with precise points on geographical maps later. Given that I have not yet managed to have a single image include GPS coordinates in the exif data, the SL2 has proven entirely useless in this regard. It does take pictures just fine; thank god for that.

I contacted Leica customer service about this and received this reply: 
"The developers looked at the data. Unfortunately, we don't have a solution at the moment, as the settings in Leica FOTOS are correct.
The geotagging function is being investigated further and improvements are being made."

As a longtime Leica user, I find this deeply disappointing. If the geotagging function is not yet 100% reliable or (as in my case) entirely non-existent, it should not be mentioned in the camera's technical specifications.

On my SL2 the connection gets a satellite icon on the screen and the data never gets written to the file. Just does not work.

On the Q2 it works Avery time.

Hopeful that the upcoming firmware will fix it.

 

[Bernd B.]

I am deeply disappointed with this current Leica-app. It still does not work properly. When I am lucky, it holds Bluetooth/GPS for some 3 minutes, so I get the GPS-info written in the exif-data of one or two photos. But most of the time: nothing! It sucks. And I do not think a new firmware for the SL2 will make it any better. I guess there may be legal issues/app-software-patents who prevent a stable, long-lasting connection between the Leica SL2/the app  and the smartphone. My solution: Using my smartphone with a gps-tracker, then uploading the data to Lightroom and from there to the dng-files. Welcome to the year 2021, Leica-engineers! 

[SonomaBear]

Leica could easily integrate inexpensive GPS hardware (like the Visoflex Tip 020)  into a small device which we mount on hot shoe. This is the same mount as Visoflex 020 -- which works on the TL, so Leica knows how to code for it.

Bingo: Leica already has working GPS and could easily add it to SL family!

QED

[skovbo13]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Hopeful that the upcoming firmware will fix it.

A firmware update for the SL2 has been announced?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Bernd B.]

Well, this suggestion sounds reasonable. Leica could do with GPS-hardware the same as Leica does with flashes. Use the products of another manufacturer, e.g. Metz (for flashes) and print „Leica“ on it, which for sure doubles the price. But we would have a working solution instead of a crappy app.