Image quality comparison between Hasselblad X1D II and Leica SL2

[Fedro]

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6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I’m thankful we have very different ideas regarding personal photo projects. 😳

Jeff

I am not ..

 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Mr.Q]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:33 AM, SlowDriver said:

I personally have never questioned the value of IBIS but I have to admit I find it rather amusing how some Leica advocates have all of a sudden become the staunchest defenders of IBIS...

From a review of the CL:

"Some have worried about that the lack of image stabilization in the CL with a few even dismissing the camera completely for this omission. IBIS, or In-Body Image Stabilization, is a very popular buzzword these days. And while I’m not discounting the value of a good IS system, never once have I felt that I could have gotten a shot, or wouldn’t have missed a shot, had I had IS on the CL. Just hasn’t happened in the thousands of images I’ve shot with the camera over the past year or so."

To a review of the SL2 (by the same person)

"Just as significant as the jump in resolution is the addition of in-body image stabilization, or IBIS for short. The 5-axis mechanical stabilization physically moves the sensor to correct for pan, tilt and rotation. With just the in-body stabilization, expect around five and half stops of effective shake reduction. Add on one of Leica’s SL zooms with OIS (optical stabilization) and the combined correction can be more than six stops. This feature should prove to be an absolute game changer for users of M lenses, when employed with the latest APO-Summicron-SL primes, or when shooting run-and-gun handheld video."

I find it amusing as well.  

I posted something similar in another thread, but the high ISO performance of the SL2 is slightly worse than the latest APS-C sensors. The X1D is better by 2 stops, and I have no issues with handheld shots with my XCD 80/1.9.

So IBIS or 2-stops of high ISO flexibility is the real question for me, and I'd much prefer to have the ability to shoot cleaner images at ISO 12800. Perhaps most folks here shoot static photos indoors or at night, but I find myself shooting a lot of people that move quite a bit. (ie children, adults that aren't posing, bands, etc)

YMMV.

[setuporg]

I just took the same combo as Herr @Chaemono on a walk.  I must say the X1D II EVF is weak sauce compared to the SL2.  And most of the time you’re looking through one, so your Hassy day is grainy and flickering.

But carrying X1D is much better, it does not push my thumb away.  

SL2 is much faster to focus, startup, and wake up.

Will get home and compare the files.

Handling matters — that’s why I got the S after X1D to enjoy the best VF of any kind anywhere.  You’re framing the world through it!

Now tough choice, which to sell and which to keep...

[Mr.Q]

Yeah the SL2 EVF is better, though I find any EVF in the past 5 years good enough for me.

The SL2 is certainly the better choice if it's your only camera, or if your other camera is a M rangefinder. If you have multiple MILC's with other strengths though, getting the SL2 feels like adding a luxury sedan to a garage full of sports coupes and convertibles. Sensible but not very exciting.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mr.Q said:

I find it amusing as well.  

I posted something similar in another thread, but the high ISO performance of the SL2 is slightly worse than the latest APS-C sensors. The X1D is better by 2 stops, and I have no issues with handheld shots with my XCD 80/1.9.

So IBIS or 2-stops of high ISO flexibility is the real question for me, and I'd much prefer to have the ability to shoot cleaner images at ISO 12800. Perhaps most folks here shoot static photos indoors or at night, but I find myself shooting a lot of people that move quite a bit. (ie children, adults that aren't posing, bands, etc)

YMMV.

The high ISO performance is one of the reasons why I am not in a hurry to upgrade to the SL2.  It was also raised by this guy:

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Guest

[sillbeers15]

44 minutes ago, SlowDriver said:

The high ISO performance is one of the reasons why I am not in a hurry to upgrade to the SL2.  It was also raised by this guy:

 

Hahaa,....Steve Huff has the credibility of a used car dealer.

[Mr.Q]

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55 minutes ago, SlowDriver said:

The high ISO performance is one of the reasons why I am not in a hurry to upgrade to the SL2.  It was also raised by this guy:

 

Yeah Steve shoots in very dark night clubs and often pushes past ISO 12800 and even ISO 25600.

 

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Mr.Q:

So IBIS or 2-stops of high ISO flexibility is the real question for me, and I'd much prefer to have the ability to shoot cleaner images at ISO 12800. Perhaps most folks here shoot static photos indoors or at night, but I find myself shooting a lot of people that move quite a bit. (ie children, adults that aren't posing, bands, etc)

YMMV.

The IBIS advantage only plays in favor of the SL2 at low ISO, IMO, but the X1D II focuses way too slowly for “people that move quite a bit.”  The S1 is the best choice there if one is already in the L-mount system.  I may compare its high ISO performance to that of the X1D II’s.  24 MPx give it less total signal to noise, though.  

Edited January 6, 2020 by Chaemono

[setuporg]

3 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

Yeah the SL2 EVF is better, though I find any EVF in the past 5 years good enough for me.

The SL2 is certainly the better choice if it's your only camera, or if your other camera is a M rangefinder. If you have multiple MILC's with other strengths though, getting the SL2 feels like adding a luxury sedan to a garage full of sports coupes and convertibles. Sensible but not very exciting.

My only other EVF is the X1D couple.  Only allowed for the MF difference and then complemented by the S 007.  I have a bunch of Ms and their lenses and all the S lenses and got both adapters first thing, everything works fine of course.  Yet the X1D is really compact.  Tough choices!

[setuporg]

41 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

The IBIS advantage only plays in favor of the SL2 at low ISO, IMO, but the X1D II focuses way too slowly for “people that move quite a bit.”  The S1 is the best choice there if one is already in the L-mount system.  I may compare its high ISO performance to that of the X1D II’s.  24 MPx give it less total signal to noise, though.  

This is a very valid criticism, as the grainy EVF makes it hard to focus manually.  

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Hahaa,....Steve Huff has the credibility of a used car dealer.

I don't know why poor Steve gets so much flak, he's a real enthusiast and relays his own impressions...  Sure he has a business to run and things to plug, but it's kind of obvious when he does and he doesn't say a 7 Artisans lens renders like a Leica, he says the opposite.  So here.

[Chaemono]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

I just took the same combo as Herr @Chaemono on a walk.  I must say the X1D II EVF is weak sauce compared to the SL2.  And most of the time you’re looking through one, so your Hassy day is grainy and flickering.

But carrying X1D is much better, it does not push my thumb away.  

I use a different technique now. I squeeze the grip rather than pushing it with the thumb on the back and must say it helps to keep the camera more steady this way.  I should be able to get sharp shots with the XCD 80/1.9 at 1/60 sec. more consistently now.  And, yes, the grip does feel nice.

[sillbeers15]

2 hours ago, setuporg said:

I don't know why poor Steve gets so much flak, he's a real enthusiast and relays his own impressions...  Sure he has a business to run and things to plug, but it's kind of obvious when he does and he doesn't say a 7 Artisans lens renders like a Leica, he says the opposite.  So here.

If you have been reading his post long enough, you will realise he will not say bad about any gear he reviews,...he has in the past traded off his proclaimed favourite gear followed by buying back another and instantly becomes favourite again. Besides the pics he takes: None are inspiring. 
Perhaps you look forward to such non value added entrainment but certainly not me.

[Chaemono]

I want to defend Steve Huff, in a way, at pixel level WITHOUT any NR applied, and he clearly states that he doesn’t.  But I also agree with the pushback Ron Weissman gives him on his website that I copied below.  Both are right in a way.  ISO 2500-6400 on the SL2 is useable with NR at +15 to +30.  I compared SL2 ISO 2500 shots to S1 ISO 2500 shots and the noise levels without any NR applied are indeed worlds apart, at pixel level.  But as Olaf explained in another thread, at picture level more noise and more pixels cancel each other out.  That’s why the SL2 pictures are useable for Ron.  Now, if one is spoiled with the high ISO performance of the S1 or the Sigma fp, like Steve Huff is, the SL2 high ISO noise without any NR may not be acceptable.
 

“Ron Weissman says:

DECEMBER 31, 2019 AT 2:50 PM

I’ve had an SL2 for almost a month. Used it for a private theatrical event (and I cannot post pictures from this event) about a week ago, shot using quite variable stage lighting. I let the ISO float, from about 400 to about 6400, with about 25% of the shots in the ISO 2500 to 6400 range. Yes, some of the higher ISO shots have, when viewed 1:1, a slightly detectable pattern of fine grain, if you look REALLY hard. But in no case was the noise anywhere near what was shown in your pics at 2500. I shot with a Panasonic 24-70 F 2.8, at f2.8 -3.5 and mostly 1/200 to freeze the moderate movement of the actors. The pictures are gorgeous–with color, very much as you describe. Of the several hundred shots, none was ruined by noise and, visually,, I can barely tell the low ISO from the high ISO shots–at least not enough to eliminate photos from submission for publication. And for theatrical publication work, the ability to crop is quite important, to isolate individual actors and to give full view to their expressions/character. The SL2 coupled with the Canon R (with the amazingly light and compact new 70-200 R) is my new go-to kit for theatrical events of this type. Perhaps the difference is what we shoot? I don’t shoot dark scenes in pitch-black bars. But stage-lit theatrical shoots have challenging lighting and huge dynamic range issues. Even in the darker portions of the stage, not lit by spotlights, I’m not seeing the noise (at ISOs 2500 – 6400) you captured at ISO 2500. And I’ve shot probably 100 of such frames at the aforementioned event.“

Edited January 6, 2020 by Chaemono

[tom0511]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Mr.Q:

I find it amusing as well.  

I posted something similar in another thread, but the high ISO performance of the SL2 is slightly worse than the latest APS-C sensors. The X1D is better by 2 stops, and I have no issues with handheld shots with my XCD 80/1.9.

So IBIS or 2-stops of high ISO flexibility is the real question for me, and I'd much prefer to have the ability to shoot cleaner images at ISO 12800. Perhaps most folks here shoot static photos indoors or at night, but I find myself shooting a lot of people that move quite a bit. (ie children, adults that aren't posing, bands, etc)

YMMV.

Are you suggesting the x1dII is a better low light action camera than the SL2?

As soon as you calculate in the sensor size difference and want similar DOF you will loose 1-1,5 of the 2 stops, since you have to step down further on the medium format to achieve similar DOF. The 80/1.8 might be the "Noctilux" of the xcd lenses and if the shallow DOF at f1.9 is what you are after than your equation works.

The other xcd focal lengths are slower than their FF counterparts.

If I take images of my kids inside usually I grab the camera which works fastest and it would not be the x1d most of the times.

[setuporg]

13 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

If I take images of my kids inside usually I grab the camera which works fastest and it would not be the x1d most of the times.

I found long ago that if you want kids in MF you need the S.  And with the face tracking SL2 shines.  X1D is guaranteed to miss.  

[Fedro]

Outdoors I have used the X1D to good success with my kids. The SL is also fine and probably better/more responsive

Indoors unless you live in a conservatory or have studio lights blasting at all times, neither is particularly reliable and the SL2's AF can be a double edged sword often 

Indoors I prefer to use an M and manual focus, the Q2 was also very snappy in terms of AF but I have sold it

[Vieri]

On 1/4/2020 at 4:05 AM, Chaemono said:

I bet all of the XCD lenses show quite a bit of fringing in situations where the ‘equivalent’ SL lenses don’t.  I know Vieri has stated that the XCD 90/3.2 shows none and I’ll try to find it.  😁 

This is really the result of wanting to make compact and sharp MF lenses at the same time to match the form factor of the X1D, IMO.  This is the trade-off...either that or Nittoh simply doesn’t know how to design lenses without apochromatic aberrations. 😁 

By outsourcing lens design and production, Hasselblad loses control over their quality, IMO.

You can find all my Hasselblad lens reviews here: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/tag/hasselblad, in all of them there is a section dedicated to fringing and flare with images, so you can make up your mind about each lens' capability on this - and other - aspects (except for the 80mm and 120mm which I haven't had the pleasure to have for review yet).

Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri

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[frame-it]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

I found long ago that if you want kids in MF you need the S.  And with the face tracking SL2 shines.  X1D is guaranteed to miss.  

i shot a cousins kids with the GFX50r and 63mm indoors..no issues.

[tom0511]

I took images of my kids indoors with the x1d and it is possible. But it would not be my prefered choice. Sorry, I guess it is offtopic because the title is IQ and not usability or personal preferences.