Image quality comparison between Hasselblad X1D II and Leica SL2

[Mr.Q]

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2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I would say that was a highly opinionated and subjective  statement.

Actually IBIS is really good for people or portraits (not of course when they’re doing sports!)

This was brought home to me forcibly when I shot my first wedding with the SL2 last weekend - it was mostly candle-lit and the rest of it was a drab grey UK day - Generally I used the same settings as I would have done with the SL, but got a much higher keeper rate. It really made a difference in very difficult shooting conditions (mostly 6400 ISO and less than 1/60th). In this case the IBIS solves the problem of the photographer’s movement (mine), subject movement isn’t so much of a problem (ie facial expressions changing etc.). 

 

Candle-lit weddings aren't an everyday occurrence, but with MF the exposure could have been pushed to ISO 12800 1/125th, reversing the likelihood of movement back to the subject.

[Mr.Q]

Speaking of camera shake, what's the latest on the effects of the lack of EFCS on the SL2? 

[jonoslack]

32 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Candle-lit weddings aren't an everyday occurrence, but with MF the exposure could have been pushed to ISO 12800 1/125th, reversing the likelihood of movement back to the subject.

But that’s the whole point - the IBIS meant there was no need to use the higher ISO, and although candle-lit weddings aren’t an everyday occurrence, low light portraits are - and the IBIS works and is really useful - even one stop is a real bonus.

 

[bags27]

With the Q's OIS and f/1.7 28 mm lens, it's possible to produce good handheld images in absurdly low light. Once you begin using it, you think differently about photographic possibilities. I'd imagine the SL2's IBIS expands your approach similarly.

[tom0511]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Mr.Q:

With or without IBIS I shoot at 1/250 or faster for people.

if they sit still and I can reduce Iso for 2 steps in low light I now use 1/60 or 1/125 for such images without hesitation when using a camera with IBIS.

In bright light I would also shoot 1/250.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

With or without IBIS I shoot at 1/250 or faster for people.

Street photography and moving people?  Otherwise even with the IS of the 24-90 you can get sharp images at 1/30s.

[Tailwagger]

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1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

But that’s the whole point - the IBIS meant there was no need to use the higher ISO, and although candle-lit weddings aren’t an everyday occurrence, low light portraits are - and the IBIS works and is really useful - even one stop is a real bonus.

From my experience so far, it's really the combination of the two that makes the difference, at least with portrait lenses.  Since getting the SL2, I have several times shot with the SL-75mm and 135mm ART at ISO 1600 in dimly lit settings and been afforded shutter speeds of 1/15 to a 1/30, enough to stop modest movement. Noise is easily controlled at those levels and the results are, at least to me, rather staggering having arrived here via the M. To do something similar with the HCD 90 or 135mm would require a minimum of 12800 likely higher, particularly as the lenses are slower to begin with and the shutter speeds would need to be higher.

[Jeff S]

Other factors were important, but IBIS and available lens options (including zooms) were paramount in my ultimate decision to choose the SL2 over the X1Dii, recognizing that each system is potentially fantastic for specific uses and preferences.  Good thing the S007 has no IBIS, or else I might still be deliberating.  None of these systems suffers IQ for my print needs.

Jeff

[Guest]

I personally have never questioned the value of IBIS but I have to admit I find it rather amusing how some Leica advocates have all of a sudden become the staunchest defenders of IBIS...

From a review of the CL:

"Some have worried about that the lack of image stabilization in the CL with a few even dismissing the camera completely for this omission. IBIS, or In-Body Image Stabilization, is a very popular buzzword these days. And while I’m not discounting the value of a good IS system, never once have I felt that I could have gotten a shot, or wouldn’t have missed a shot, had I had IS on the CL. Just hasn’t happened in the thousands of images I’ve shot with the camera over the past year or so."

To a review of the SL2 (by the same person)

"Just as significant as the jump in resolution is the addition of in-body image stabilization, or IBIS for short. The 5-axis mechanical stabilization physically moves the sensor to correct for pan, tilt and rotation. With just the in-body stabilization, expect around five and half stops of effective shake reduction. Add on one of Leica’s SL zooms with OIS (optical stabilization) and the combined correction can be more than six stops. This feature should prove to be an absolute game changer for users of M lenses, when employed with the latest APO-Summicron-SL primes, or when shooting run-and-gun handheld video."

Edited January 3, 2020 by Guest

[bags27]

11 minutes ago, SlowDriver said:

never once have I felt that I could have gotten a shot, or wouldn’t have missed a shot, had I had IS on the CL. Just hasn’t happened in the thousands of images I’ve shot with the camera over the past year or so."

That is a funny contradiction.

But just try using the CL with a long tele on a cloudy day and getting even a bit of depth of field so that you get the whole hawk in focus. I can't tell you how many images I've missed without IBIS.

Edited January 3, 2020 by bags27

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, bags27 said:

That is a funny contradiction.

But just try using the CL with a long tele on a cloudy day and getting even a bit of depth of field so that you get the whole hawk in focus. I can't tell you how many images I've missed without IBIS.

Definitely the 55-135 would benefit from IS and IMO all zooms would as they are rather slow.

Let's hope the CL2 also contains IBIS...

And is accompanied by a few new lenses as well...!! 😉

Edited January 3, 2020 by Guest

[Jeff S]

I don't want or need IBIS in my M bodies....been fine since the 80's without (and 24 MP is more than enough, although I suspect the race will go on).  But I specifically was looking for a different system to complement the M, including IBIS (as long as form factor wasn't a deal breaker), weather sealing, zooms, and lenses beyond 28-50mm, which form the heart of my RF-only M use. So, no contradiction for me, just different needs and uses. But I still prefer the viewing experience through an OVF, recognizing the focusing and other benefits of an EVF.  

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

For dozens of years, I refused to pay for a nav in my cars. Once I got serious about roaming around New England in search of scenes to photograph, it became inconceivable to think of owning an automobile without one. I, like many others here, have any number of shots with the M taken at well under 1/10", so for the longest time, IBIS seemed like something other folks needed to make up for either the awkwardness of their equipment or technique. But having now experienced the advantages and how it has significantly altered what I can capture and how, IBIS has become just as mandatory as that nav. In just a few short weeks of SL2 use, it is now hard to imagine owning another camera without it. 

[IkarusJohn]

I doubt I would want a 135 format camera of over 36MP without IBIS.  I don’t have one, but having struggled with the d800e and A7r without IBIS, I’m in no hurry to go back there.

[tom0511]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb SlowDriver:

I personally have never questioned the value of IBIS but I have to admit I find it rather amusing how some Leica advocates have all of a sudden become the staunchest defenders of IBIS...

...

I have missed IS (or IBIS) from the first moment when I tried the 55-135mm lens. With 23/2.0 and 35/1.4 you have 2 pretty fast lenses, and you have 1 f-stop "DOF-advantage" with the dx sensor vs full frame, so you dont miss ibis all the time, but I certainly would love to have IBIS in the CL. And for some occasions when you dont need full resolution the SL2 makes a very nice compact combo with CL lenses. For example with the 60 TL, or the 55-135 or the 23/2.0.

Edited January 3, 2020 by tom0511

[Chaemono]

The X1D doesn’t need IBIS per se for the lighter and smaller lenses as the high ISO performance and adjustment latitude of its ‘MF’ sensor exceeds that of any 40+ MPx FF sensors.  The problem is that the smaller, lighter XCD lenses, the 45 and the 90, for example, are a bit slow and the 80/1.9 is very heavy relative to the very light X1D body.  The right hand doesn’t stabilize this combo no matter how nicely formed the back side of the X1D II grip for the thumb to rest on is.  The left hand has to do all the ‘lifting’ to stabilize the combo with the 80/1.9.  The 45, 90, and 80 XCD lenses, therefore, need to be shot at ISO 400 in situations where the SL2 with the 35, the 75 Summicron, and the 50 Summilux SL lenses, can be used at base ISO.  I haven’t checked yet for ‘push-ability’ of the files at ISO 400 vs ISO 100 on the SL2, but adjustment latitude of ISO 100 X1D files exceeds that of the SL2 when it comes to detail recovery in what looks like blown highlights. 
 

BTW, the first statement fully applies to the CL, too, and I fully agree with Tom’s points above.  ‘Push-ability’ of the ISO 100 CL files is impressive and ISO 1600 noise and color are totally usable.

[setuporg]

I've not found the X1D + XCD 80/1.9 any heavier or imbalanced than the SL2 with any lens.  The wonderful double-edged grip beats the SL ones.  One can carry the X1D all day and it does not press against the ball of your hand as the bottom of the SL2 does.  The hasselbladdigitalforum.com shows that most folks there use it for landscapes on a tripod, and when switching, most switch to GFX100, not the SL2.  Those who got the SL2 do it as a complementary camera for portraits and such.  And very capable @Vieri switched to X1D from both the SL and the S systems.

Basically we're looking at two different use cases and one should buy both.  Also keep the M line and lenses of course and if you enjoy both the medium format and the OVF, get the S.:)

Edited January 3, 2020 by setuporg

[Chaemono]

The X1D II grip is formed in such a way that the pressure of the right hand is mainly applied by the thumb.  The SL2 grip is formed is such a way that the index, the middle, the ring fingers, and the pinky can be pressed into the front ‘mold’ of the grip.  This has the nice effect of pressing the palm against the side of the SL2 grip.  The thumb is free to turn the wheel.  With the X1D II the thumb plays the major role in supporting the camera.  Loosening pressure of thumb on the back of the grip doesn’t help the index, the middle, and the ring fingers to be pressed inside the front of the grip because the palm then moves away from it.  The X1D II grip is simply too slim.  I’ll post pictures in a little while of both cameras and my right hand. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And here are the combos in the my right hand.

With the X1D II,  the thumb of the right hand plays a key role in order to push the right side of the grip against the palm and to support the camera with the lens.

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Reducing the pressure by the thumb and pressing the index, the middle, the ring fingers, and the pinky inside the left front of the grip moves the palm away from the grip.  With a heavy lens like the XCD 80/1.9 mounted, the combo cannot be held steady one handed and tilts to the left.

 

With the SL2, the thumb of the right hand plays no role in pushing the side of the grip against the palm.  It's the pressure by the index, middle, ring fingers, and pinky inside the slight indentation on the left side at the front of the grip that pushes its right side firmly into the palm.  The thumb can be used to move/push the joystick or the function key next to the EVF without the combo becoming unstable.

 

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[Chaemono]

Now that we have established that each camera's grip design was well thought through, the X1D II's best for holding and carrying the camera, the SL2's best for actually using the camera (😂), let's look at some more pictures.  Suppose one wanted to stop down these two 'Summerluxes' a bit, let's say to f/2.8 (f/3.4 on the 'MF' Hassy).  How high would one need to crank up the ISO on the X1D to get a reasonably sharp picture handheld with that hunk of a lens?  Well, I managed at 1/100 sec. and ISO 800.  Of course, the SL2 with the 50 Summilux-SL I could leave at ISO 100 and shoot it handheld at 1/15 sec. (to be on the safe side).

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-s7N2tR/

X1D II + XCD 80/1.9 RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g886911585-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=ggXqA39DKfLOrE1iiu1QAkK_hwFoiqUwZgCLbC9HNwk=

With the following adjustments

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X1D IIISO 800 f/3.4 @1/100 sec.

SL2 + 50 Summilux-SL RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g590603528-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=WugSPN26C6J_NdWeW68kBfpa7GXT_iEVpt_ykgQeWqU=

With the following adjustments

SL2 ISO 100 f/2.8 @1/15 sec.

Edit - Sharpening at +50 for both

Edited January 3, 2020 by Chaemono
Edit - Sharpening at +50 for both