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Image quality comparison between Hasselblad X1D II and Leica SL2


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9 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I asked one of my favourite reseller in Paris Elle & Lui (which is also the second biggest Leica dealer in France and a wedding/Studio photographer) Also sell Hasselblad and Sigma.
Which one to choose ? 

For him there is no contest : SL2 with SL lenses are way better than X1D II + Nittoh’s made XCD lenses. Nothing beats Leica’s lenses. Especially the APO-Summicron-SL, combined with the SL2. They are way better than Blad’s mirrorless, because SL2 > X1D II & SL lenses > XCD. So the maths is simple. 
 

For their own work they still use original SL with SL lenses. Usability wise it is better than X1D II. They will switch to SL2 when the demand from their customers will lower. 
 

So they convinced me not to choose Hasselblad.

 

I’m sorry, and I love my Leica gear and have much more Leica than Hasselblad gear, but I’m not sure how anyone who has used both systems could say this with a straight face. The X1D sensor is obviously better and the XCD lenses are all excellent/outstanding. The SL vs XCD lens comparison is certainly no night and day difference, despite the SL lenses being very large and covering a smaller sensor. 

As most people with experience with both systems have said, the SL2 is more versatile, but in raw IQ terms the smaller sensor cannot keep pace even with the now quite old mini-medium format sensor the X1D has on board, and that equation will only swing further against the SL2 if/when the XCD system gets a sensor refresh. 

There are many good reasons one might choose the SL system over the XCD system, but outright image quality isn’t one of them. 

Edited by Alistairm
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vor 11 Minuten schrieb Alistairm:

...and the XCD lenses are all excellent/outstanding.

Wide open they are a bit soft.  The only excellent in terms of sharpness and bokeh seems to be 80/1.9.  And I'm not even sure how much CA/PF it shows.  I'll likely rent the X1D II with the 90/3.2 and compare it to the 75 Summicron-SL on the SL2.  I used this lens before and it won't be a match for the SL Summicron, I'm afraid.  The real cheapo one, though, is the 45/3.5.

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10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I asked one of my favourite reseller in Paris Elle & Lui (which is also the second biggest Leica dealer in France and a wedding/Studio photographer) Also sell Hasselblad and Sigma.
Which one to choose ? 

For him there is no contest : SL2 with SL lenses are way better than X1D II + Nittoh’s made XCD lenses. Nothing beats Leica’s lenses. Especially the APO-Summicron-SL, combined with the SL2. They are way better than Blad’s mirrorless, because SL2 > X1D II & SL lenses > XCD. So the maths is simple. 
 

For their own work they still use original SL with SL lenses. Usability wise it is better than X1D II. They will switch to SL2 when the demand from their customers will lower. 
 

So they convinced me not to choose Hasselblad.

 

Really! I don't think so.

You use the term Nittoh as if it's an insult. They make spectacular glass. I'll put the CXD 21, 65, 80 and 135 up against any lens from any manufacturer and they'll do well. The 80 is something special, as is the 135. While they draw differently, it's ridiculous to say the SL glass is *better* than the XCD glass.

If that's what they told you, you might want to go to a dealer that tells the truth.

Gordon

p.s. please note I also still shoot weddings with the original SL, and will continue to do so. But it isn't because the SL lenses are better than the XCD ones.

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Please tell my reseller. He sells and uses both. It is its point of view.

And he has no hesitation at all about which one is better than the other. 
To be more specific : he said that X1D II images were too flat for its taste. They are perfect for studio shots, but not at its advantage outside. 
 

He also said that X1D II is still too clunky. Better than X1D but still not as nice to use as the SL. 

And now SL2 have IBIS. 

X1D lenses have some quirks : loud shutter and weird octogonal bokeh. 
 

However he never said that XCD lenses were bad. They are nice, but APO-Summicron-SL were so incredible, that he will not bother with medium format. Not even with the S system. 
 

By the way, there are only one reseller in France, selling both Leica and Hasselblad. So it is hard to find someone else to tell the truth... 

If I go to les Victor, they will say that Hasselblad is awesome. And if I go to Leica Store Beaumarchais they will say that SL2 is awesome. At least Elle et Lui should be the most impartial guy. 
 

 

Edited by nicci78
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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Wide open they are a bit soft.  The only excellent in terms of sharpness and bokeh seems to be 80/1.9.  And I'm not even sure how much CA/PF it shows.  I'll likely rent the X1D II with the 90/3.2 and compare it to the 75 Summicron-SL on the SL2.  I used this lens before and it won't be a match for the SL Summicron, I'm afraid.  The real cheapo one, though, is the 45/3.5.

Can’t say that’s my experience.  I’d say all the X1D lenses are excellent wide open with the one exception being the 45mm XCD which is small, light, inexpensive (relatively) and “adequate” but not “excellent”.  The rest of the lineup, though, is “excellent” wide open.  That includes the 135 mm, the 90 mm, the 65 mm, the 30 mm and the 21 mm.  I don’t own the 80 mm since it would not be an improvement for me over the 90 mm and it’s more expensive and heavier.  I’m not a huge fan of ultra-thin depth of field shots, though. Others seem to love the 80 mm.  The 45 mm is definitely the outlier in my experience, though with sample variation who knows.  Mine may be below average, though it is still an excellent lens.  Just not up to the level of the rest shot wide open.  It’s very good stopped down to f/8.

As to the Summicron SL’s, I own the 35 mm and the 75 mm and could not be happier with either.  The 35 mm in particular is a really special lens.  I can’t wait to try it on an SL2.  Still waiting for the one I have on order.  Maybe by Christmas?  Or early next year?  We’ll see.

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1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

<snip>X1D lenses have some quirks : loud shutter and weird octogonal bokeh. 
<snip>

 

Since shutter is in the lens, each shutter sound differs with the lens used. The octagonal bokeh (not in all lenses) was fixed with a firmware update.

It seems that you should rather believe the Leica owners here on this forum.

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Since shutter is in the lens, each shutter sound differs with the lens used. The octagonal bokeh (not in all lenses) was fixed with a firmware update.

It seems that you should rather believe the Leica owners here on this forum.

FW ‘fixes’ (assuming one prefers circles) bokeh shape wide open, not at other apertures. 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

If I go to les Victor, they will say that Hasselblad is awesome. And if I go to Leica Store Beaumarchais they will say that SL2 is awesome. At least Elle et Lui should be the most impartial guy. 
 

And often the recommendation is based on margin.

My experience the world over of camera sales people is they judge what they say based on what they think will sell, then they’ll cite specs - IBIS, MP, focus points, blah, blah ...  All good, if that floats your boat.

I can’t see myself getting rid of my M cameras (they’re each special in their own way) or my M lenses, the SL is a fabulous universal platform with lovely native lenses; the X1D II is quite different - slow, considered, with the fantastic 21 & 80 lenses.  I’ll probably add the 135 XCD and converter, if I see one on a trip where I can get the tax back.

I don’t think of any system as “better” than the other.  They have different strengths - X1D the best sensor, SL more versatile and the M’s quicker, easier and more relaxed.

Sounds like your dealer is a mine of missinformation, but then probably entertaining and useful from time to time.  The measure, I think, is to work out what you like, research and try them (if you can - I generally can’t).

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4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Please tell my reseller. He sells and uses both. It is its point of view.

And he has no hesitation at all about which one is better than the other. 
To be more specific : he said that X1D II images were too flat for its taste. They are perfect for studio shots, but not at its advantage outside. 
 

He also said that X1D II is still too clunky. Better than X1D but still not as nice to use as the SL. 

And now SL2 have IBIS. 

X1D lenses have some quirks : loud shutter and weird octogonal bokeh. 
 

However he never said that XCD lenses were bad. They are nice, but APO-Summicron-SL were so incredible, that he will not bother with medium format. Not even with the S system. 
 

By the way, there are only one reseller in France, selling both Leica and Hasselblad. So it is hard to find someone else to tell the truth... 

If I go to les Victor, they will say that Hasselblad is awesome. And if I go to Leica Store Beaumarchais they will say that SL2 is awesome. At least Elle et Lui should be the most impartial guy. 
 

 

I agree that the Hassy files are different in that they come in a flatter and more neutral rendering, and they can appear to be lower contrast SOOC. Moving the sliders in post quickly reveals how much detail and contrast you could pull from the X1D files. It's kind of like a LOG profile for video as it retains much more dynamic range and color depth. The X1D isn't a JPEG camera that's for sure. 

As for the lens choices, for what I shoot with the X1D, the 21 + 30 + 80 is perfect. Luckily for me, all 3 seem to be regarded as best in class optically. I may purchase the 135 + 1.7 down the line, but for now I'm happy with the Leica R 80-200/4 for landscapes. If I need longer or faster the A9 is probably better anyway.

One issue I have with the current SL lens lineup is that I can't shoot wider than 35mm without opting for one of the Bazooka zooms. I guess it's another year or two before the 21, 24, and 28 Summicrons arrive. 

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7 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

My experience the world over of camera sales people is they judge what they say based on what they think will sell, then they’ll cite specs - IBIS, MP, focus points, blah, blah ...  All good, if that floats your boat.

I really trust him. Because he knows that I bought my brand new Leica stuff at Leica store Beaumarchais. Not with him. However if he ever convinced me with Hasselblad I would have bought it from him. 
So it was not a smart move. 
 

The other point is that their staff are also working photographers. And not only salesmen. And they are testing their  cameras and lenses in real professional world. 
 

For example he refuses to tell me what he thinks about the new Sigma fp and their lenses. Because he has to test them actively before. 

They don’t care about marketing speech. They gave you their professional opinion. This is how this very small shop at Pigalle became the largest independant Leica reseller in France. Actually the shop is even smaller, because it is also a studio and a workstation rent for Flextight scanner. 
 

They are also Hasselblad and Sigma reseller. They will soon add Panasonic cameras to their portfolio. Because they want to be the L-mount specialist at Paris. 
But oddly enough, Leica Store Saint Honoré also starts to sell Panasonic Lumix S hardware. And they will add Sigma soon. 
 

He said that he starts to sell Sigma because of future Foveon camera. Not because of fp. He also has concern about electronic shutter only camera. Because he hated to adapt non native lens to X1D. Its electronic shutter is too bad to be really useful.  

Just to conclude that I really value its honest opinion. 
 

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24 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I really trust him. Because he knows that I bought my brand new Leica stuff at Leica store Beaumarchais. Not with him. However if he ever convinced me with Hasselblad I would have bought it from him. 
So it was not a smart move. 
 

The other point is that their staff are also working photographers. And not only salesmen. And they are testing their  cameras and lenses in real professional world. 
 

For example he refuses to tell me what he thinks about the new Sigma fp and their lenses. Because he has to test them actively before. 

They don’t care about marketing speech. They gave you their professional opinion. This is how this very small shop at Pigalle became the largest independant Leica reseller in France. Actually the shop is even smaller, because it is also a studio and a workstation rent for Flextight scanner. 
 

They are also Hasselblad and Sigma reseller. They will soon add Panasonic cameras to their portfolio. Because they want to be the L-mount specialist at Paris. 
But oddly enough, Leica Store Saint Honoré also starts to sell Panasonic Lumix S hardware. And they will add Sigma soon. 
 

He said that he starts to sell Sigma because of future Foveon camera. Not because of fp. He also has concern about electronic shutter only camera. Because he hated to adapt non native lens to X1D. Its electronic shutter is too bad to be really useful.  

Just to conclude that I really value its honest opinion. 
 

'future Foveon camera' ... Yes! 

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1 hour ago, helged said:

'future Foveon camera' ... Yes! 

+1

... after looking endlessly at files across several brands of 45-50mp CMOS FF cameras (including the SL2), the overwhelming thing I’ve concluded is just how similar they all look! The CMOS sensor definitely has a “look” that’s hard to escape from ......

A Foveon sensor, based on several years of using the DP Merrill, doesn’t fall into that category, IMHO. To me, that camera’s sensor is unique in terms of depth of tonality, and edge sharpness (given no Bayer blur). The image just looks less “processed” to my eyes. But with the downside of poorer high ISO performance.

Edited by Jon Warwick
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10 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

I agree that the Hassy files are different in that they come in a flatter and more neutral rendering, and they can appear to be lower contrast SOOC. Moving the sliders in post quickly reveals how much detail and contrast you could pull from the X1D files. It's kind of like a LOG profile for video as it retains much more dynamic range and color depth. 

Having owned this sensor once before, back when it was state of the art, I can say that the 645Z was far more difficult in this regard. I frankly never really felt as though I understood how to cope with its output, many others at the time felt the same.  Before very long, I sold it off, keeping the 645D instead as although slower in every imaginable and unimaginable way, it's a CCD and any M9 owner will tell you, they do image differently from CMOS.  

IMO, if you find the 'blad output blah, I'm not sure what to tell you. In the end, there's 14 stops in there that have to squeeze down into 6 or so... every one does it a little differently (unless you're viewing on an HDR; in which case I'm jealous). Regardless the X1D files are easily adjusted in post. 

SL2/75mm SooC

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X1DII/45mm  processed:

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X1DII SooC:

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So, I'm just not sure what folks expect. Obviously the above isn't a test, it's just a random, roughly side by side comparison out in the real world, which hopefully gives innocent bystanders some notion of the hairs that are being spilt here. Both cameras are beyond excellent, each has its own brief, which admittedly have areas of overlap. Personally, if I could own only one, I'd choose the SL2 as it simply can cover a broader range of scenarios.  But there are certainly those who will find that their requirements are better met by the X1D, not to mention the allure of lower overall system cost once lenses are factored in.

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IBIS is the big advantage of the SL2  compared to the X1Dii for me (along with native lens options); if the X1Dii had it in roughly the same body, I would have gone in that direction instead.  The files are superb, requiring some editing just as all my printed pics do.

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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9 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I really trust him. Because he knows that I bought my brand new Leica stuff at Leica store Beaumarchais. Not with him. However if he ever convinced me with Hasselblad I would have bought it from him. 
So it was not a smart move. 
 

The other point is that their staff are also working photographers. And not only salesmen. And they are testing their  cameras and lenses in real professional world. 
 

For example he refuses to tell me what he thinks about the new Sigma fp and their lenses. Because he has to test them actively before. 

They don’t care about marketing speech. They gave you their professional opinion. This is how this very small shop at Pigalle became the largest independant Leica reseller in France. Actually the shop is even smaller, because it is also a studio and a workstation rent for Flextight scanner. 
 

They are also Hasselblad and Sigma reseller. They will soon add Panasonic cameras to their portfolio. Because they want to be the L-mount specialist at Paris. 
But oddly enough, Leica Store Saint Honoré also starts to sell Panasonic Lumix S hardware. And they will add Sigma soon. 
 

He said that he starts to sell Sigma because of future Foveon camera. Not because of fp. He also has concern about electronic shutter only camera. Because he hated to adapt non native lens to X1D. Its electronic shutter is too bad to be really useful.  

Just to conclude that I really value its honest opinion. 
 

Of course, everyone’s opinion is of value; and your friendly dealer sounds like it’s worth a visit.  But, as Tailwagger points out, we’re dancing on the head of a pin.

To my choices, I add voices I trust (Gordon), my own needs and uses, and image quality.  My approach is to first look at lenses, sensor format, image quality haptics etc, and once I’ve decided a camera will meet my needs, I buy and and then tend to use it till it dies - my SL is as good now as it was when I bought it.  The SL2 and its extra pickles and IBIS doesn’t have a slightest impact on my SL.  I loved the look of the X1D when it was released (as an ex-593cx user), but canceled my order when the reality became clear.  Hasselblad has fixed the obvious niggles, so buying the X1D II was a noi brainer.

As good as dealers are, my preferred dealer would have me own a GFX ...

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Trusting people and their recommendations isn't just a question of believing them because you like them or because of their qualifications*. It's because you have had a chance to compare their judgement with yours; if they match, preferably on several occasions, then you can trust their judgement and recommendations going forward. Anything else is just a matter of faith, which is no basis for spending large amounts of money. There are a small number of people in the infosphere whose recommendations I trust, because I've seen their opinions on kit I own and they coincide with mine.

 

* nor because they happen to be pros. Pros are pros because they're in it for the money. Amateurs are in it for the love of it (by definition). They have different needs and criteria for judging kit. Both can have similar levels of experience and can make valid judgements and useful recommendations.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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On 12/1/2019 at 1:44 PM, Mr.Q said:

I agree that the Hassy files are different in that they come in a flatter and more neutral rendering, and they can appear to be lower contrast SOOC. Moving the sliders in post quickly reveals how much detail and contrast you could pull from the X1D files. It's kind of like a LOG profile for video as it retains much more dynamic range and color depth. The X1D isn't a JPEG camera that's for sure. 

As for the lens choices, for what I shoot with the X1D, the 21 + 30 + 80 is perfect. Luckily for me, all 3 seem to be regarded as best in class optically. I may purchase the 135 + 1.7 down the line, but for now I'm happy with the Leica R 80-200/4 for landscapes. If I need longer or faster the A9 is probably better anyway.

One issue I have with the current SL lens lineup is that I can't shoot wider than 35mm without opting for one of the Bazooka zooms. I guess it's another year or two before the 21, 24, and 28 Summicrons arrive. 

The Sigma 14-24 f2.8 for L mount is really really good and about a third of the SL16-35. It's sharp to the corners wide open and has good colour. It has some distortion though so probably not an formal architecture lens without a Lightroom profile. I got one to use while my 16-35 is in for repair (user error). Now I think I'll keep it for travel and other uses. I really like it. It also has almost no coma. An excellent Astro lens.

Gordon

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On 12/1/2019 at 8:54 AM, nicci78 said:

Please tell my reseller. He sells and uses both. It is its point of view.

And he has no hesitation at all about which one is better than the other. 
To be more specific : he said that X1D II images were too flat for its taste. They are perfect for studio shots, but not at its advantage outside. 
 

He also said that X1D II is still too clunky. Better than X1D but still not as nice to use as the SL. 

And now SL2 have IBIS. 

X1D lenses have some quirks : loud shutter and weird octogonal bokeh. 
 

However he never said that XCD lenses were bad. They are nice, but APO-Summicron-SL were so incredible, that he will not bother with medium format. Not even with the S system. 
 

By the way, there are only one reseller in France, selling both Leica and Hasselblad. So it is hard to find someone else to tell the truth... 

If I go to les Victor, they will say that Hasselblad is awesome. And if I go to Leica Store Beaumarchais they will say that SL2 is awesome. At least Elle et Lui should be the most impartial guy. 
 

 

I understand his perspective on usage. I wouldn't call the X1D "clunky" its user interface is sensational. Plus images zoom in and render faster on the rear screen on the X1DII vs the SL2. But with a slower 3-4 second startup, slower AF and slower maximum shutter speeds it's a camera that's far more specialised than a generalist like the SL. The SL2 is vastly more versatile and the IQ difference in handheld shooting is small. The X1D has more limited long lens options, one zoom (coming) and the shutter sound of a leaf shutter. The SL just has a much much bigger shooting envelope and that's useful. Really useful.

With the addition of IBIS to the SL2 (and S1R), it gets really hard to justify the incremental IQ difference to the X1D over the SL2/S1R. Most of the time you can shoot the same scene at a lower ISO on the SL2, until the subject starts moving. As I said before I shoot weddings on my SL's and will continue to do so. Also I took the S1R in preference to my X1D/X1DII on my last two trips and that was the right camera to take. Likely I'll take the SL2 and S1R next time for travel.

However.......

If I want to shoot with flash the X1DII kills the SL2 with Nikon compatibility and it's leaf shutter lenses. Honestly the hex bokeh is so over done. It's not that often it's noticeable unless you're shooting against hanging lights and even then if you are you are probably shooting wide open. If I'm shooting off a tripod (which I do often) the X1DII is unbeatable. It excels in it's IQ, user interface and long exposure IQ. It has a better grip. The buttons are on the correct side of the LCD (so you can reach the play button with your thumb). And it loads 500MB of lens profile information on startup which is why you don't need profiles in post or LENR up to an hour exposure. It's also ISO invariant.

In practical terms the SL2 is a better choice. Then again an S1R is more practical again. After all the Summicrons fit right on to it as they do the SL's. It's fine to say the SL Summicrons are so good that it's not worth going to medium format (although the S lenses work great on the SL2). That is probably true for most people. But the XCD lenses are just as good as the SL ones and for some it's possible to appreciate the subtle differences in the systems. There are simply no reviews of the XCD 21, 30, 65, 80, 90 or 135 that say the lenses are sub par. The XCD45mm is merely excellent.

What we have here is two of the best photographic tools available to us. The choice isn't going to come down to whether one is "better". It's not that simple when the usage is so different. For a tripod bound landscape shooter the X1D is pretty hard to beat for a portable miniMF solution. For studio photographers the X1D will excel. For travel shooters the SL2 is fabulous. Maybe even well healed journos. Neither is a sports system. Both are more expensive than some other "more advanced" options. Both are partly bought based on choices other than being the ultimate technology. If you buy a 'blad or a Leica you need to spend some serious coin and you're almost certainly making that purchase decision partly on attraction not just logic. These are both top shelf product for well healed consumers. Which one is best is easy. Both.

Gordon

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