Seeking Long term user experiences with on the s007?

[setuporg]

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@Stuart Richardson there's no more dark tunnel with X1D MkII.  The problem mis that the EVF is pixellated and when shooting both S and X1D I/II together, you can't help noticing how much better the OVF is.  The S007 is much faster in reality so the moment of taking the image feels actually that.

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[Photon42]

The initial reaction capture lag of the x1d seems fine for me. The shot on shot lag was the issue for me, given the sensor read out time of 300 ms. You can see it in the video.

[alan.y]

5 hours ago, setuporg said:

@Stuart Richardson there's no more dark tunnel with X1D MkII.  The problem mis that the EVF is pixellated and when shooting both S and X1D I/II together, you can't help noticing how much better the OVF is.  The S007 is much faster in reality so the moment of taking the image feels actually that.

It's strangely reassuring to learn that the EVF isn't at "retina" resolution and indistinguishable from reality (just yet).

 

[Jeff S]

I haven’t really enjoyed any EVF I’ve tried (tested many, but don’t own one... yet), certainly not compared to the S OVF.  Still a TV like experience to me.  I haven’t  yet handled the X1Dii, but was pleasantly surprised by the viewing experience using the Nikon Z7 recently, despite its less than top class EVF resolution.  The look was more ‘natural’ for some reason, but that might have been influenced by the cloudy, less contrasty  light that day.  There’s more to optics than resolution, as Leica repeatedly demonstrates, and Nikon claims some optical achievements with the Z viewing system. Either that, or my brief encounter was misleading.

Jeff

Edited October 1, 2019 by Jeff S

[Stuart Richardson]

The newest EVF's are quite remarkable in daylight, for example, the one in the S1. That said, they are still like looking through a TV, and I think that is just inherent in the technology. They apply the camera settings, which means the color profiles, exposure settings, white balance and screen information, all of which are an interpretation of the scene, rather than a direct transmission of it. The OVF experience will always be reflected light, either directly in a rangefinder, or reflected off a mirror. EVF's will never be able to replicate that perfectly, nor would they ever really aspire to, as they are showing you the output of the sensor, not the image of the actual scene. It can be very effectively argued that seeing the output of the sensor can be more helpful, as you see a closer approximation of the final result, but I would rather work with the scene as it actually appears. Because of that, I tend to prefer SLR's, Rangefinders and view cameras. I have made my peace with the EVF in the S1, but I primarily use that with video where seeing the output is much more critical (since post processing is not generally done from RAW in these kinds of cameras, and post processing is so much more onerous...you kind of have to get it right in camera).

Edited October 1, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[Jeff S]

I understand the technologies and pros/cons  (at least from a user perspective), but my film and darkroom days using view cameras and SLRs (since the 70’s, as well as MF rangefinders) ended ten years ago. The viewing experience remains a top priority for my camera buying,  but the OVF digital choices for me today are limited. Since 2009, I’ve stuck with digital Ms in large part for that reason. But now, searching for a complement to the Ms, I might just have to bite the bullet and get an EVF based camera.  Or not.

Jeff 

[Stuart Richardson]

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I understand that, but I think that while the market is shifting to mirrorless, many of the best cameras are still mirrored or RF...the Canon and Nikon top of the line SLRs, the Phase One XF system, Hasselblad H series, Leica S, M series, Fuji X cameras with hybrid viewfinders etc. Mirrorless is coming on extremely strongly, but there are many options for people who prefer optical viewfinders. When you say a compliment to your M's, what kind of camera are you envisioning? Something higher resolution and slower etc?

[Jeff S]

25 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I understand that, but I think that while the market is shifting to mirrorless, many of the best cameras are still mirrored or RF...the Canon and Nikon top of the line SLRs, the Phase One XF system, Hasselblad H series, Leica S, M series, Fuji X cameras with hybrid viewfinders etc. Mirrorless is coming on extremely strongly, but there are many options for people who prefer optical viewfinders. When you say a compliment to your M's, what kind of camera are you envisioning? Something higher resolution and slower etc?

I want to shoot wider and longer than the M provides using RF, so lens line (including zoom) is important.  But, as noted, viewing experience is key, as is weather sealing (body and lenses), control interface and ergonomics, primarily for handholding (some tripod use, but secondary).  

I decide by demo-ing gear and making and evaluating prints using my workflow.  The cameras still in the mix include the SL2, X1Dii and S007. I didn’t bond with Fuji, and my days with both Canon and Nikon (D)SLRs are done (although the Z7 provides intrigue).  Big, expensive MF systems (S excepted... but only at bargain prices) hold no interest, even with potentially fine viewing systems.  Much longer story, but that’s the gist.

Jeff

[yudafu2]

very interesting! Looks like this conversation has deviated toward the comparison of different systems, and especially between the S007 and the X1D models. I have never played with X1D, but have been intrigued by it. I downloaded quite a few raw files online from the X1D cameras and played with them in the Lightroom. I have to say, I am not impressed. They have nice colors but do not have the bite and clarity of the Leica S007 images. Since getting the S007, I feel that is one of the best decisions I have made.  

I also own the GFX 50s, with the 23, 45, and 110 lenses. I know the GFX is not as sexy as the X1D, but the lenses have a sharpness that I have never seen outside of Leica and Zeiss offerings. That being said, my wife (who does not photograph) prefers the Leica S images vs. the Fuji every single time. She can see the difference and thinks the S images are far superior. 

I do have a question for the X1D shooters, do you think the lenses are really on par with the S lenses?  Do they have the sharpness, bite and clarity of the Leica lenses? 

Somehow I feel that I can trust Fuji a bit more than the XCD lenses. Since Fuji has been producing medium format lenses for so long, while the factories that built the XCD lenses are ones that I have never heard of. 

 

G

[davidmknoble]

@yudafu2 I did read recently from an interview with Leica that the S lenses were created to be used up to a 35 x 40 sensor at 100mb of Resolution.  Meaning, the lenses are set for a few generations of S sensors.

I know this is a long thread, but her are a few comments from initial questions:

I have not had a focusing problem with the S007 and done mostly tripod landscape work.  I did start with an S2P briefly, then got lucky with the trade up program to get the S007.  I have bought mostly used lenses, but all with new motors and CLA's.  I spent a week and a half in Iceland last year and a few days spent several hours in a downpour using the S007 with no problems.  I also like the lower aperture numbers on the S lenses so that you really can play with focus and depth of field.  The S007 is tuned for color output specifically over all other Leica systems - to provide a fast workflow with less time dealing with color adjustments.  I find even in sunrise beach photography that the colors are very consistent and need little to no work.

Just my thoughts....

[Sarnian]

59 minutes ago, Outdoorimages said:

 I did start with an S2P briefly, then got lucky with the trade up program to get the S007.  

I wonder if Leica will have a trade-up program when the S3 is released? If they do then I guess it's best to own a 007 at the time as I doubt they'd bother with S2/S2-P or 006 owners (like myself).

[tom0511]

Am 4.10.2019 um 02:18 schrieb yudafu2:

very interesting! Looks like this conversation has deviated toward the comparison of different systems, and especially between the S007 and the X1D models. I have never played with X1D, but have been intrigued by it. I downloaded quite a few raw files online from the X1D cameras and played with them in the Lightroom. I have to say, I am not impressed. They have nice colors but do not have the bite and clarity of the Leica S007 images. Since getting the S007, I feel that is one of the best decisions I have made.  

I also own the GFX 50s, with the 23, 45, and 110 lenses. I know the GFX is not as sexy as the X1D, but the lenses have a sharpness that I have never seen outside of Leica and Zeiss offerings. That being said, my wife (who does not photograph) prefers the Leica S images vs. the Fuji every single time. She can see the difference and thinks the S images are far superior. 

I do have a question for the X1D shooters, do you think the lenses are really on par with the S lenses?  Do they have the sharpness, bite and clarity of the Leica lenses? 

Somehow I feel that I can trust Fuji a bit more than the XCD lenses. Since Fuji has been producing medium format lenses for so long, while the factories that built the XCD lenses are ones that I have never heard of. 

 

G

I use both Leica S and X1d (as a hobbyist) - I think the Leica lenses have a smoother bokeh and some focal length Leica lenses have less vignetting.

[yudafu2]

 

On 10/25/2019 at 1:10 PM, Outdoorimages said:

@yudafu2 I did read recently from an interview with Leica that the S lenses were created to be used up to a 35 x 40 sensor at 100mb of Resolution.  Meaning, the lenses are set for a few generations of S sensors.

I know this is a long thread, but her are a few comments from initial questions:

I have not had a focusing problem with the S007 and done mostly tripod landscape work.  I did start with an S2P briefly, then got lucky with the trade up program to get the S007.  I have bought mostly used lenses, but all with new motors and CLA's.  I spent a week and a half in Iceland last year and a few days spent several hours in a downpour using the S007 with no problems.  I also like the lower aperture numbers on the S lenses so that you really can play with focus and depth of field.  The S007 is tuned for color output specifically over all other Leica systems - to provide a fast workflow with less time dealing with color adjustments.  I find even in sunrise beach photography that the colors are very consistent and need little to no work.

Just my thoughts....

 

Thanks for responding to my original question. Since I got my S007 at the end of August, I have been shooting with it every single day. I have to say, I love it more and more with every shooting. I mostly used it to shoot my kids, my wife, some foliage and random landscape. I haven't bought a camera that makes me so happy for a long while. I find the S007 is absolutely the best small medium format camera there is. It is far superior than my GFX 50s. Since I got the S007, the GFX became almost useless except for being a back for the M lenses.  The color of the 007 is actually very nice, much nicer than Fuji. The operation is much faster. And the lenses are just unparalleled. Since I got the 007, I added the 45mm elmarit and the 180mm to my original 35, 70, and 120. I have to say, money well spent. I find the 45 is probably the sharpest of all lenses that I have used. The 180 is super useful. Over all, I have loved all of my S lenses. I still have the S2p, which now lives on a tripod. The S007 works like an action camera, and it does almost everything.  At the current price level in the used market, the S007 is actually a great value compared to even Hasselblad and Fuji. 

Just some random, incoherent thoughts. But you get my enthusiasm. 

 

 

[peterv]

7 hours ago, yudafu2 said:

I haven't bought a camera that makes me so happy for a long while.

+1

I bought my S007 in June this year and couldn't be happier. I've had the S2-P for six years which was very fine, but the S700 is just so versatile, it's a dream-camera to work with.

[Sarnian]

I'm wondering how many people bought their 007's brand new from a Leica store. I see them on eBay for £5,500-£6,000 so is there any good reason to buy one from Leica for £15,800? That the 007 doesn't suffer from sensor corrosion is buying one on eBay such a bad idea? The £10k saved could buy some nice lenses! 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Sarnian

[John McMaster]

I would not buy a new one now with the S3 imminent (?), I bought mine used from The Pro Centre (when there were few on the market) for less than half the new cost...

john

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, John McMaster said:

I would not buy a new one now with the S3 imminent (?)...

Now listed on Leica site as Spring, 2020.  Moving target...

Jeff

[albireo_double]

I have not read the entire thread, so apologies if I am going to repeat some points. I’ve had the 007 for four years now. Shooting with it exclusively this week, while on a holiday in Greece, so my memories are very fresh. Lenses are fantastic but large and heavy. I always travel with two lenses only (45/100 this time). Most of my S lenses have had a failed AF motor (4 out of 7). Which means taking two lenses only a bet in the lottery. Now I hope that all my lenses have been repaired using the new AF gears, but I am not sure. The camera body has a good shape and great viewfinder. Battery lasts a long time. Weather sealed and very robust (I know, I dropped it from 1.5 m when I stepped on the tether cable....which is attached so well that it literally pulled the camera from my hands). Now the issues. I absolutely hate the multifunctional top wheel, especially if I am shooting in M and wish to change aperture and shutter speed independently. In this situation, the top wheel serves to change shutter speed. However, more than half the time, it finds itself in the image review mode where it moves between images. You need to half press the shutter to put the camera in the shooting mode again and make the top wheel change shutter speeds again. It is very annoying for me. The other annoyance is that, in Leica’s true tradition, the sensor seems to collect more gunk and dust than on other similar cameras (did not have to clean the sensor on the GFX ever, same with D850, same with the Phase One XF...). I have flown with a bottle of Eclipse in my luggage but I expect that I may find myself in trouble one day for packing a bottle of a toxic flammable liquid in my luggage and certifying that I have not done so every time I check in. But I won’t touch the sensor with anything else. I have written about problematic tethering on this forum several times, so will not go into details again. My issues aside, the pictures are great, of course. 

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[ZHNL]

2 hours ago, albireo_double said:

I have not read the entire thread, so apologies if I am going to repeat some points. I’ve had the 007 for four years now. Shooting with it exclusively this week, while on a holiday in Greece, so my memories are very fresh. Lenses are fantastic but large and heavy. I always travel with two lenses only (45/100 this time). Most of my S lenses have had a failed AF motor (4 out of 7). Which means taking two lenses only a bet in the lottery. Now I hope that all my lenses have been repaired using the new AF gears, but I am not sure. The camera body has a good shape and great viewfinder. Battery lasts a long time. Weather sealed and very robust (I know, I dropped it from 1.5 m when I stepped on the tether cable....which is attached so well that it literally pulled the camera from my hands). Now the issues. I absolutely hate the multifunctional top wheel, especially if I am shooting in M and wish to change aperture and shutter speed independently. In this situation, the top wheel serves to change shutter speed. However, more than half the time, it finds itself in the image review mode where it moves between images. You need to half press the shutter to put the camera in the shooting mode again and make the top wheel change shutter speeds again. It is very annoying for me. The other annoyance is that, in Leica’s true tradition, the sensor seems to collect more gunk and dust than on other similar cameras (did not have to clean the sensor on the GFX ever, same with D850, same with the Phase One XF...). I have flown with a bottle of Eclipse in my luggage but I expect that I may find myself in trouble one day for packing a bottle of a toxic flammable liquid in my luggage and certifying that I have not done so every time I check in. But I won’t touch the sensor with anything else. I have written about problematic tethering on this forum several times, so will not go into details again. My issues aside, the pictures are great, of course. 

I agree with you about top dial. Also another confusing part is: The top lcd screen would show you focus distance then shutter speed most of time you want take a look of your setting in Manual mode. (unless you turn it to active the shutter speed ) This is annoy. 

Of course, in Aperture priority mode, this dial can't be programmed to EC and just sit there useless...

I like the system general speaking especially for their glass rendering and I can ignore its poor slow and laud AF given I don't rely on it much but I don't want paint the system better than it really is and I can clearly see the color difference compare to S006 especially mid range purity at ISO200 or below and removing real shutter dial seem deviate Leica's ergo core to me, it make in field control cumbersome and less pleasing for sure.   

Edited October 28, 2019 by ZHNL

[Sarnian]

I'm happy with my 006 even though it suffers from sensor corrosion (nothing that I can't Photoshop out with 10 seconds or so). I'm happy with the situation only because I paid £786 for it. If I had bought it new for £18,000 then, yes, I'd be really annoyed.

I know that I could fork out c.£2,000 to get the sensor replaced (it's out of warranty) but, instead, I bought a 30mm Elmarit for £1,749. The autofocus seems fine so I wonder if I should send it away to get the autofocus motor replaced (c.£280) or just keep using it and it may or may not die? It would certainly have better future sale potential if I had the AF motor replaced and was able to prove that fact to a potential buyer by showing them some Leica paperwork. If the work only took 2-3 weeks I'd do it in a heartbeat but the prospect of my lens being in Germany for several months kind of defeats the object of me buying it in the first place!

Decisions, decisions.