jaapv Posted September 26, 2019 Share #161 Posted September 26, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, setuporg said: Here's an idea, @jaapv: there really needs to a separate subforum in the M system forums, "The EVF-M", which will be a honey trap for all those mirrorless carpetbaggers who come looking for it. The FAQ will have the links to all the previous threads and a hearty invitation to keep discussing it in that special area, safely corralled! That way the rangefinder folks will not have to defend their choice, the original Leica, and be at peace. We can even peek inside the EVF corral from time to time to see whether they reinvented a Fuji X-Pro yet... Given that an M-EVF is pie in the sky to put it mildly, that might be rather premature. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 26, 2019 Posted September 26, 2019 Hi jaapv, Take a look here To EVF or Rangfinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
setuporg Posted September 26, 2019 Share #162 Posted September 26, 2019 (edited) @lct I have a feeling that a lot of folks who came to M are switching from mirrorless systems or bring iphone expectations to it. While another set of folks grew up on rangefinders. Since RF predates all electronics, carpetbaggers is a shortcut for those coming to Rome with the desire to upgrade it (um, barbarians?:). All meant in a good cheer! The one case I see where EVF appeals to long-time RF users is aging, which is actually very relevant, and humbling, on this forum, and awaits all of us... Edited September 26, 2019 by setuporg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted September 26, 2019 Share #163 Posted September 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, jaapv said: Given that an M-EVF is pie in the sky to put it mildly, that might be rather premature. The FAQ can begin with that reality check.:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 26, 2019 Share #164 Posted September 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, setuporg said: @lct I have a feeling that a lot of folks who came to M are switching from mirrorless systems or bring iphone expectations to it. While another set of folks grew up on rangefinders. Since RF predates all electronics, carpetbaggers is a shortcut for those coming to Rome with the desire to upgrade it (um, barbarians?:). All meant in a good cheer! The one case I see where EVF appeals to long-time RF users is aging, which is actually very relevant, and humbling, on this forum, and awaits all of us... So what does « carpetbagger » mean or matches in this flattering description? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted September 26, 2019 Share #165 Posted September 26, 2019 (edited) @lct Those who come bring a notion of a reform to an established community, promising new kinds of freedoms from the old ways, for instance... Wikipedia has a good overview. Edited September 26, 2019 by setuporg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 26, 2019 Share #166 Posted September 26, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, setuporg said: @lct Those who come bring a notion of a reform to an established community, promising new kinds of freedoms from slavery of the old ways, for instance... Wikipedia has a good overview. Carpetbagger implied individuals from the Union (North) to the confederacy (South) to exploit the South's economic distress. In a weak analogy to camera technology perhaps it means exploiting the difficulties inherent to real rangefinder use to sell EVF. The analogy struggles. Plain language would suffice. Edited September 26, 2019 by pico 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 26, 2019 Share #167 Posted September 26, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 14 minutes ago, setuporg said: @lct Those who come bring a notion of a reform to an established community, promising new kinds of freedoms from slavery of the old ways, for instance... Wikipedia has a good overview. I see. Is it good manner to call someone this way in your country? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted September 26, 2019 Share #168 Posted September 26, 2019 It's a humorous historical allusion, you don't need to read it literally. I like historical parallels, but they not always match exactly... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 26, 2019 Share #169 Posted September 26, 2019 19 minutes ago, setuporg said: It's a humorous historical allusion, you don't need to read it literally. I like historical parallels, but they not always match exactly... Well this is an international forum here so i was just trying to figure out if i should react to your imput or ignoring it without looking impolite. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 26, 2019 Share #170 Posted September 26, 2019 24 minutes ago, lct said: I see. Is it good manner to call someone this way in your country? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger Hello LCT, Thank you for "clicking" the Wikipedia Section to here for all of us to read. I don't know about the Section that deals with Great Britain but the part about the USofA after the American Civil War leads a person to think that Robert E. Lee (1 of the Soldiers on the Southern side in the American Civil War.) is alive & well & might have given up his Military Career to write for Wikipedia. It is a shame about Wikipedia that: This is not the only article in Wikipedia that I have read that, by the structure & content of the information provided: Has skewed the topic under discussion to the point where a reader without background in the subject under discussion: May come away with an inaccurate understanding of the topic under discussion. Do you know if the characterization of the people in Great Britain being discussed in this Article is accurate? Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 26, 2019 Share #171 Posted September 26, 2019 46 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Do you know if the characterization of the people in Great Britain being discussed in this Article is accurate? No idea sorry. I did not know what « carpetbagger » means before being called this way. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted September 27, 2019 Share #172 Posted September 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello DKMoore, I think that I might have not been clear in the way that I was writing. I am not advocating for or against film or digital. I was writing about range/viewfinder magnification. When Leitz first introduced the M3 their target audience was photographers using mostly normal to medium long focus lenses. Wider angle & longer focus lenses were more of specialty lenses. With the advent of newer optical glasses & computers to aid in lens design in the 1950's: Correction levels were enhanced & focal lengths, both wider & longer, became more available. Leitz realized that there could be a significant saving in cost of camera bodies by redesigning the range/viewfinder at a lower magnification. The majority of the cost differential between the M3 & the M2 was the difference in the cost of the 2 range/viewfinders. And that cost differential is significant. The M2 was bought both by people trying to save money & also by those people for whom a 35mm lens was a priority. Even though there were M3 compatible 35mm lenses made. While people who were more likely to favor normal to long focus lenses often preferred the M3. There were significantly more M3 cameras manufactured than there were M2 cameras. Both were replaced by the M4. Which is an updated M2. The M2 range/viewfinder is the basis for all of the range/viewfinders in all of the range/viewfinder cameras that succeded the M2. Including the range/viewfinders with 0.58X & 0.85X magnification. Whether or not Leica decides to manufacture a larger magnification range/viewfinder in the future should not be an impediment to whether or not a person can see what it is possible to have. Best Regards, Michael You were clear. I understood exactly what you were saying. Still, not relevant to the discussion. But again, I'm not trying to be confrontational or argumentative. The advice/info just doesn't make sense since we are talking about DIGITAL cameras and eye relief/usability with glasses. The M3 could have the worlds most glasses user friendly, resilient, accurate, and knock proof rangefinder and yet is still irrelevant. But anyway, let's call it one of those moments where we both agree to disagree and go about enjoying the other forum discussions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 27, 2019 Share #173 Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Whether or not Leica decides to manufacture a larger magnification range/viewfinder in the future should not be an impediment to whether or not a person can see what it is possible to have. Indeed and there are common points between OVF and EVF regarding magnification. Suffice it to shoot both eyes open with a 50mm (35mm on APS-C) lens on a rangefinder or a mirrorless camera. This can be done easily with the Epson R-D1 for instance (1:1), less so with the M3 (0.91x) or the 0.85x M6, but the digital SL (0.80x) or CL (0.74x) let alone the M10 (0.73x) or the M240 (0.68x) don't play in the same league from this standpoint. Enhancing magnification is easier with the EVF though and focus magnification is only possible with it. Edited September 27, 2019 by lct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted September 27, 2019 Share #174 Posted September 27, 2019 If Leica can release a second M camera without a back screen for the super duper hardcore fans of the "film experience", I don't see why they can't release an additional M with EVF or even better hybrid EVF/rangefinder for those who want it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 27, 2019 Share #175 Posted September 27, 2019 Replacing the rangefinder by an EVF is considerably more development work than just leaving off the LCD. They might do, but most likely a special edition @ 25.000$ in that case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 27, 2019 Share #176 Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Simone_DF said: ....I don't see why they can't release an additional M with EVF or even better hybrid EVF/rangefinder for those who want it. They’ve tried, but so far have failed to develop a product that is not compromised... https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/08/very-interesting-hints-about-future-leica-products.aspx/ New technology has clearly been explored... https://leicarumors.com/2015/10/14/leicas-patents-for-optoelectronic-rangefinder.aspx/ Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 27, 2019 Share #177 Posted September 27, 2019 This discussion has been going on for at least half a decade now, including a crowdfunding scam... It is unlikely to be resolved any time soon. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 27, 2019 Share #178 Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, dkmoore said: You were clear. I understood exactly what you were saying. Still, not relevant to the discussion. But again, I'm not trying to be confrontational or argumentative. The advice/info just doesn't make sense since we are talking about DIGITAL cameras and eye relief/usability with glasses. The M3 could have the worlds most glasses user friendly, resilient, accurate, and knock proof rangefinder and yet is still irrelevant. But anyway, let's call it one of those moments where we both agree to disagree and go about enjoying the other forum discussions. Hello DKMoore, Actually, there is nothing to "agree to disagree" about because the ability to put a range/viewfinder of the type that I am writing about into a modern Digital "M" camera existed over 50 years ago. The camera that used that range/viewfinder then & whose range/viewfinder could be put into a current Leica digital camera today is an M3. No rocket science here. And no "agree to disagree" necessary. Whether Leica chooses to do it, or/& why & why not, is a different issue. But, the ability to do so exists today. And that would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people who wear glasses & for a lot of people who don't wear glasses. Best Regards, Michael Edited September 27, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 27, 2019 Share #179 Posted September 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Actually, there is nothing to "agree to disagree" about because the ability to put a range/viewfinder of the type that I am writing about into a modern Digital "M" camera existed over 50 years ago. The camera that used that range/viewfinder then & whose range/viewfinder could be put into a current Leica digital camera today is an M3. No rocket science here. And no "agree to disagree" necessary. Whether Leica chooses to do it, or/& why & why not, is a different issue. But, the ability to do so exists today. The M3 is "only" 0.91x though. Better use an 1:1 viewfinder like that of the R-D1 from this viewpoint. Associated with current M rangefinders, it would allow for focussing difficult lenses more easily. Now accessory EVF or OVF(s) would have to be used for lenses wider than 50mm or 40mm anyway so chances to get such a VF are likely to approach zero IMHO. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted September 27, 2019 Share #180 Posted September 27, 2019 24 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello DKMoore, Actually, there is nothing to "agree to disagree" about because the ability to put a range/viewfinder of the type that I am writing about into a modern Digital "M" camera existed over 50 years ago. The camera that used that range/viewfinder then & whose range/viewfinder could be put into a current Leica digital camera today is an M3. No rocket science here. And no "agree to disagree" necessary. Whether Leica chooses to do it, or/& why & why not, is a different issue. But, the ability to do so exists today. And that would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people who wear glasses & for a lot of people who don't wear glasses. Best Regards, Michael Lol. Your comments are all over the place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now