To EVF or Rangfinder

[0luke1]

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1 hour ago, Matlock said:

Some may well be, but the vast majority are not.

 

The market is crowded with mirrorless EVF cameras, there is only one rangefinder. People are using Sony a7r*** with Leica lenses. I did, but couldn’t stand the buttons, joy sticks, thumb wheels and endless layers of menus,  that dissatisfaction  led me to buy the M10. I use the rangefinder, but with my noctilux and thambar, it’s simply not good enough (at least with my eyes). Leica’s focus peaking works less than half the time. Im not satisfied. 

I’d think, given the interest in using manual Leica lenses with Sony cameras, there’s a lot of interest in a Leica M-style body with a good EVF and rangefinder.

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[setuporg]

The EVF rabbit hole will never satisfy the gadgeteers until it is world's best EVF, which it will never be, alas.  Leica is the world's best rangefinder, however.  Hence giving the EVF to the masses will only increase clamor for better electronics.  These whole phenomena seem a result of the iPhones and mirrorless crowds getting into the system and wanting to have it all.  But it was here as Rome before, and in Rome do as Romans do: use the glass for optics and light that existed for thousands of years before and will do so.  If the only thing about SL that's not enough is its size, ask for PetitSL, just don't call it M2.  M is RF, and anything else is not.  As simple as that.  Or show me the board room where Oscar Barnack presented his revolutionary eye AF camera to Leitz.

Edited September 24, 2019 by setuporg

[farnz]

11 minutes ago, setuporg said:

The EVF rabbit hole will never satisfy the gadgeteers until it is world's best EVF, which it will never be, alas. 

The SL's EVF with 4.4 million pixels was the world's best EVF by a long way from 2015 until Panasonic's released the S1 and S1R with 5.8 million pixels 6 months ago.

Pete.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, 0luke1 said:

The market is crowded with mirrorless EVF cameras, there is only one rangefinder. People are using Sony a7r*** with Leica lenses. I did, but couldn’t stand the buttons, joy sticks, thumb wheels and endless layers of menus,  that dissatisfaction  led me to buy the M10. I use the rangefinder, but with my noctilux and thambar, it’s simply not good enough (at least with my eyes). Leica’s focus peaking works less than half the time. Im not satisfied. 

I’d think, given the interest in using manual Leica lenses with Sony cameras, there’s a lot of interest in a Leica M-style body with a good EVF and rangefinder.

Focus peaking works on contrast differences. If you use lenses like the Thambar, it will not function. If you bump up the sensitivity, it will be proportionally less accurate (e.g.Sony - designed to work in the 28-90 mm range). Leica's M focus peaking is designed to work best with long lenses and macro. For all other use there is the OVF/RF.

[lct]

54 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Focus peaking works on contrast differences. If you use lenses like the Thambar, it will not function. If you bump up the sensitivity, it will be proportionally less accurate (e.g.Sony - designed to work in the 28-90 mm range). Leica's M focus peaking is designed to work best with long lenses and macro. For all other use there is the OVF/RF.

... For all other use there is EVF with focus magnification and the OVF/RF

[setuporg]

Sure Leica can be the best EVF for a bit but given the long release cycles we’re bound to lose that war, and we should not fight it.  A removable EVF is OK...  OTOH I’ve just picked up an S 007 and boy that OVF is better than any EVF.:)

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I think the leica m is a unique and beautiful camera.

Mine is a type 262 and it has a big clear viewing window with an easy to focus rangefinder patch.

All i have in the way of viewfinder information are frame lines and shutter speed which is all i need.

My olympus camera has a menu that resembles tolstoy's "war and peace",a bloody thumb wheel for aperture,a viewfinder with more information than a cockpit in a 1960's airliner and the battery lasts 25 minutes.

The external VF-4 is as good as the Q EVF but its still some electronic over hyped laggy gadget that the big manufacturers assure us we need.

The m has its limitations but there is nothing quite like using one as a photographic tool in 2019 in my view and putting an EVF is as bad an idea as i can imagine,except maybe adding auto-focus.

 

[rosuna]

21 hours ago, Matlock said:

I don't but nor do you. There are plenty of alternatives with EVF (and many more to come I am sure) so lets just keep the M range as OVF. The new Fuji X-Pro3 looks to be the way to go but not as a replacement for the OVF.

I know Leica is considering (or even developing) a EVF based M camera, so anyone can infer Leica knows there is potential demand for that.

The M system, even with a EVF based M, has no alternatives. 

24x36mm sensor and supersmall lenses... there is nothing like that.

The rangefinder/EVF is a secondary question at this moment. 

It makes sense two cameras because there are two different types of customers, apparently. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by rosuna

[Matlock]

2 minutes ago, rosuna said:

The M system, even with a EVF based M, has no alternatives. 

24x36mm sensor and supersmall lenses... there is nothing like that.

The rangefinder/EVF is a secondary question at this moment. 

It makes sense two cameras because there are two different types of customers, apparently. 

Fully agree but many don't. 🙂 

[rosuna]

17 hours ago, setuporg said:

Sure Leica can be the best EVF for a bit but given the long release cycles we’re bound to lose that war, and we should not fight it.  A removable EVF is OK...  OTOH I’ve just picked up an S 007 and boy that OVF is better than any EVF.:)

The same can be said of TL/CL cameras, or SL camera.

The same can be said of any digital camera, because the EVF is not the only component with short innovation cycles, and Leica release cycles are long for all cameras.

 

[rosuna]

1 minute ago, Matlock said:

Fully agree but many don't. 🙂 

Leica knows better. 

[stephan54]

I used the VF exclusively, but was glad I had EVF as an alternative. After a fall on a rocky path the VF was severely misalligned, but the EVF was still working.

Very happy that I was able to keep on shooting during my Japan trip.

[rosuna]

17 hours ago, setuporg said:

Sure Leica can be the best EVF for a bit but given the long release cycles we’re bound to lose that war, and we should not fight it.  A removable EVF is OK...  OTOH I’ve just picked up an S 007 and boy that OVF is better than any EVF.:)

The S system is different because an OVF and a reflex camera implies a long flange distance. Replacing the OVF with a EVF does not reduce the size of the lenses and the design constraints implied by that flange distance. It makes less sense a S camera with EVF than a M camera with EVF. 

[spersky]

On 9/23/2019 at 10:30 PM, setuporg said:

This recurrent digression of an “EVF in an M body” keeps baffling me.  Have you guys clamoring for it noticed the SL and CL subforums?  Or the Q2?  Did Oscar Barnack invent an iconic electronic viewfinder?  Are Leica users entitled to one, just darn one camera which is not flickering?:)

I think the point is that the Leica M lenses are almost universally loved,  yet there is no real native full frame camera to utilize these lense with a EVF that even comes close to comparable camera bodies on the market.  So if we wanted to use the small and lightweight M glass we must look elsewhere with adapters.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Matlock said:

Fully agree but many don't. 🙂 

Wait till they receive their M11 with a superb 34 or 48MP sensor. They will begin to love their Visoflex then .

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, rosuna said:

The S system is different because an OVF and a reflex camera implies a long flange distance. Replacing the OVF with a EVF does not reduce the size of the lenses and the design constraints implied by that flange distance. It makes less sense a S camera with EVF than a M camera with EVF. 

And the EVF is there already as Live View for focus peaking.

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, spersky said:

I think the point is that the Leica M lenses are almost universally loved,  yet there is no real native full frame camera to utilize these lenses with a EVF that even comes close to comparable camera bodies on the market.  So if we wanted to use the small and lightweight M glass we must look elsewhere with adapters.

Sure that's a legit ask, except it's not an M.  It would be a new line for Leica.  Philosophically, the M avoids mediation by technology as much as possible...

[rosuna]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Wait till they receive their M11 with a superb 34 or 48MP sensor. They will begin to love their Visoflex then .

36MP 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rosuna]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

Sure that's a legit ask, except it's not an M.  It would be a new line for Leica.  Philosophically, the M avoids mediation by technology as much as possible...

Ok, we fully agree then. Lets call it "eM"... or something not exactly the same than "M".

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by rosuna

[rosuna]

This EVF-M we are talking about would bring many advantages. 

The cost, weight and size may be smaller. 

Current day EVFs are superb. 

The EVF-M will become the standard M, and the OVF-rangefinder based M would be for fashion-sensitive, brand-sensitive, luxury-sensitive, typical-Leica-users vintage-lovers.