TL CL future

[lct]

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On 6/19/2019 at 5:26 PM, nicci78 said:

That's why you never seen X, X Vario, T or X-U special edition.

Never say never .

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Anyway, I see the CL as a continuation of  the X-series with an L mount.

[ramarren]

My own perception is that the CL is the rational further development of the X typ 113 form factor and control ergonomics into a full system camera with interchangeable lenses. The X typ 113 is a superb camera; I didn't take to the X Vario because, as good as the lens was, I still don't like zoom lenses and it was somewhat slow. 

 

[cirke]

On 6/19/2019 at 4:54 PM, caigy said:

Leica needs to start responding to customer requests for simple fixes such as a software update to enable the option of locking the focus box in the center of the image without locking all the other functions. 

For that only reason I will not keep the CL if they dont fix that bug, I want my focus point in the center and nowhere else

[Vip]

Software updates are fundamental to maintain the camera close to users needing and shows the company interest in customers 

[colonel]

Anecdotely, the Leica CL is selling ok. Much better then the T

Whether Leica keeps it or not though is entirely whether they see an APS-C mirrorless line as part of their strategic arsenal and where it goes in the future. Its sales volume is not a liynch pin of Leica's bottom line. At the moment they do, but who knows in the future.

For me, whilst I think the T, TL2 and CL are excellent cameras, they have been hamstrung by a small range of over priced * lenses. (* Yes, as a M user I have the gall to say that. The thing is, they are made in Japan, and no better then the latest Fuji lenses.)

Today at least there is a second hand market. Some third party suppliers (e.g. 7artisan). Additionally, adaptors make the APS-C TL cameras a good option for manual lenses, especially M mount ones. Interestingly, there is also the L mount group. Although none of them have announced APS-C cameras, I am kind of hoping that Sigma, with its excellent range of APS-C mirrorless lenses, will adapt some, as the cost of variable production lines comes down.

Bottom line, Leica could give the TL line a hugh boost with a range of reasonably (Leica reasonable) priced f1.8/f2 primes and a f2.8 zoom (please!!!).

At the moment, if the lens range works for you, its a fantastic system.

IMHO there is no APS-C mirrorless camera from any other manufacturer with the combination of size, minimal control system and menu, build and quality of lens output. Sony has the excellent bodies, but apart from a few lenses, not the lens range with the quality (corners of the APS-C zooms are terrible) and Fuji doesn't have the build and is hamstrung by x-trans for detail.

In 2019, if someone wants the best APS-C mirrorless camera, I am glad to point them towards the CL/TL2, with the caveat about lenses ...

Lastly my thoughts, Leica is in the business of luxury photography, whether we like it or not. Many folk with lots of money and not much knowledge walk into Selfridges (or equivalent) and want the most expensive and easiest to use equipment. Many of these folk know enough to want interchanegable lenses or a zoom and good quality output. IMHO Leica needs to service these people. Its a solid market in China and the east as well as the West. The M does not satisfy this market as it needs an expert photographer, the Q is prime which no none-photographer type wants, the SL/S is too large, the 107 is not high quality IQ. The CL/TL2 range is actualyl the only range that satisfys this type of, and arguably the most "normal" of rich customers .... IMHO of course. ...

[johntobias]

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2 hours ago, colonel said:

 The CL/TL2 range is actualyl the only range that satisfys this type of, and arguably the most "normal" of rich customers .... IMHO of course. ...

agree ....  it is just so versatile  that us 'photographers' can exploit it too!   win win situation

[bags27]

2 hours ago, colonel said:

Anecdotely, the Leica CL is selling ok. Much better then the T

Whether Leica keeps it or not though is entirely whether they see an APS-C mirrorless line as part of their strategic arsenal and where it goes in the future. Its sales volume is not a liynch pin of Leica's bottom line. At the moment they do, but who knows in the future.

For me, whilst I think the T, TL2 and CL are excellent cameras, they have been hamstrung by a small range of over priced * lenses. (* Yes, as a M user I have the gall to say that. The thing is, they are made in Japan, and no better then the latest Fuji lenses.)

Today at least there is a second hand market. Some third party suppliers (e.g. 7artisan). Additionally, adaptors make the APS-C TL cameras a good option for manual lenses, especially M mount ones. Interestingly, there is also the L mount group. Although none of them have announced APS-C cameras, I am kind of hoping that Sigma, with its excellent range of APS-C mirrorless lenses, will adapt some, as the cost of variable production lines comes down.

Bottom line, Leica could give the TL line a hugh boost with a range of reasonably (Leica reasonable) priced f1.8/f2 primes and a f2.8 zoom (please!!!).

At the moment, if the lens range works for you, its a fantastic system.

IMHO there is no APS-C mirrorless camera from any other manufacturer with the combination of size, minimal control system and menu, build and quality of lens output. Sony has the excellent bodies, but apart from a few lenses, not the lens range with the quality (corners of the APS-C zooms are terrible) and Fuji doesn't have the build and is hamstrung by x-trans for detail.

In 2019, if someone wants the best APS-C mirrorless camera, I am glad to point them towards the CL/TL2, with the caveat about lenses ...

Lastly my thoughts, Leica is in the business of luxury photography, whether we like it or not. Many folk with lots of money and not much knowledge walk into Selfridges (or equivalent) and want the most expensive and easiest to use equipment. Many of these folk know enough to want interchanegable lenses or a zoom and good quality output. IMHO Leica needs to service these people. Its a solid market in China and the east as well as the West. The M does not satisfy this market as it needs an expert photographer, the Q is prime which no none-photographer type wants, the SL/S is too large, the 107 is not high quality IQ. The CL/TL2 range is actualyl the only range that satisfys this type of, and arguably the most "normal" of rich customers .... IMHO of course. ...

Really good thoughts: thanks! Just want to suggest a qualification of Leica being in THE business of luxury photography. That is certainly a large part of Leica's business model, something it needs to survive. But it is also a luxury to appreciate that Leica strives for absolute perfection, especially in its glass. That appeals to those with money but not much true photographic interest, and to those with a lot of photographic interest who may or may not have a lot of money. There is a certain wonderful insanity in developing, say, the M 35 f/1.4 FLE and the M50 f/2 APO, not to mention all those versions of the Noctilux. 

I've been trying to convince myself to buy a Nikon Z as well. The other day I played with it and, frankly, it left me cold. I think it has the best UI of any non-Leica mirrorless, but it so very, very far below Leica's standards for just about every aspect of the user's experience. When Nikon fixes its focus tracking, the Z will be such a technically superior camera, and yet it's so hard to imagine feeling the same joy in using it as I do with my CL and Q. It is certainly a luxury to own Leica, but it also gives such aesthetic enjoyment. 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, colonel said:

Anecdotely, the Leica CL is selling ok. Much better then the T

 

For me, whilst I think the T, TL2 and CL are excellent cameras, they have been hamstrung by a small range of over priced * lenses. (* Yes, as a M user I have the gall to say that. The thing is, they are made in Japan, and no better then the latest Fuji lenses.)

.

Hmmm.. All camera makers make good lenses at present. The M lenses are in the same  quality range as the competition , with the exception of a number of "special" lenses - the APOs, the Noctilux, etc. But there you really pay the price. As it is, I see little difference between M and TL lenses in image quality and of course M lenses perform stellar on the CL/TL2.

[colonel]

47 minutes ago, bags27 said:

There is a certain wonderful insanity in developing, say, the M 35 f/1.4 FLE and the M50 f/2 APO, not to mention all those versions of the Noctilux. 

I've been trying to convince myself to buy a Nikon Z as well. The other day I played with it and, frankly, it left me cold. I think it has the best UI of any non-Leica mirrorless, but it so very, very far below Leica's standards for just about every aspect of the user's experience. When Nikon fixes its focus tracking, the Z will be such a technically superior camera, and yet it's so hard to imagine feeling the same joy in using it as I do with my CL and Q. It is certainly a luxury to own Leica, but it also gives such aesthetic enjoyment. 

I do like the Leica's nutty lenses. Rarely I get to use one, but they are aspirational

I have a Z, its excellent. I agree its the best mirrorless for handling outside of Leica, but Leica has a special aethetic. Once you get it, its difficult to find joy with most other brands

45 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Hmmm.. All camera makers make good lenses at present. The M lenses are in the same  quality range as the competition , with the exception of a number of "special" lenses - the APOs, the Noctilux, etc. But there you really pay the price. As it is, I see little difference between M and TL lenses in image quality and of course M lenses perform stellar on the CL/TL2.

Yes they do, which is my point. If an APS-C  Leica lens made in Japan is the same IQ and build quality as a FF equivalent from another manufacturer at half the price, its difficult to feel good about it

I am one of those odd people who actually think the CL/TL2 bodies are quite reasonable ....

Edited July 4, 2019 by colonel

[jaapv]

I even think that the lenses are quite reasonable; I think their image quality is stellar.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

11 hours ago, colonel said:

Anecdotely, the Leica CL is selling ok. Much better then the T

Whether Leica keeps it or not though is entirely whether they see an APS-C mirrorless line as part of their strategic arsenal and where it goes in the future. Its sales volume is not a liynch pin of Leica's bottom line. At the moment they do, but who knows in the future.

For me, whilst I think the T, TL2 and CL are excellent cameras, they have been hamstrung by a small range of over priced * lenses. (* Yes, as a M user I have the gall to say that. The thing is, they are made in Japan, and no better then the latest Fuji lenses.)

Today at least there is a second hand market. Some third party suppliers (e.g. 7artisan). Additionally, adaptors make the APS-C TL cameras a good option for manual lenses, especially M mount ones. Interestingly, there is also the L mount group. Although none of them have announced APS-C cameras, I am kind of hoping that Sigma, with its excellent range of APS-C mirrorless lenses, will adapt some, as the cost of variable production lines comes down.

Bottom line, Leica could give the TL line a hugh boost with a range of reasonably (Leica reasonable) priced f1.8/f2 primes and a f2.8 zoom (please!!!).

At the moment, if the lens range works for you, its a fantastic system.

IMHO there is no APS-C mirrorless camera from any other manufacturer with the combination of size, minimal control system and menu, build and quality of lens output. Sony has the excellent bodies, but apart from a few lenses, not the lens range with the quality (corners of the APS-C zooms are terrible) and Fuji doesn't have the build and is hamstrung by x-trans for detail.

In 2019, if someone wants the best APS-C mirrorless camera, I am glad to point them towards the CL/TL2, with the caveat about lenses ...

Lastly my thoughts, Leica is in the business of luxury photography, whether we like it or not. Many folk with lots of money and not much knowledge walk into Selfridges (or equivalent) and want the most expensive and easiest to use equipment. Many of these folk know enough to want interchanegable lenses or a zoom and good quality output. IMHO Leica needs to service these people. Its a solid market in China and the east as well as the West. The M does not satisfy this market as it needs an expert photographer, the Q is prime which no none-photographer type wants, the SL/S is too large, the 107 is not high quality IQ. The CL/TL2 range is actualyl the only range that satisfys this type of, and arguably the most "normal" of rich customers .... IMHO of course. ...

Overpriced? Possibly. No better than the Fuji lenses? Not in my experience. I have the Fuji 10-24, 18-55, 16-50, 55-200 and 35mm 1.4 plus the nearest CL equivalents (11-23, 35mm, 18-55, 55-135) and while the Fuji lenses are great the CL lenses are better.

Gordon

[colonel]

7 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Overpriced? Possibly. No better than the Fuji lenses? Not in my experience. I have the Fuji 10-24, 18-55, 16-50, 55-200 and 35mm 1.4 plus the nearest CL equivalents (11-23, 35mm, 18-55, 55-135) and while the Fuji lenses are great the CL lenses are better.

Gordon

Pick any one of those lenses, for example the Fuji 18-55mm is £595 and the Leica 18-56mm is £1,400. The Fuji is a better lens as it’s just as sharp and goes to f2.8.

Its fine to have a 50% Leica tax but a 140% tax for an inferior lens ? Even Leica has less then a 100% tax for M lenses but they are unique and superior 

Edited July 5, 2019 by colonel

[jaapv]

MTF curves? controlled test shots? I think your opinion would not be sustainable.

"Sharp" is not a measurable optical property I fear, but a subjective layman term, widely misused.

[LocalHero1953]

I'm in Arles for the photo festival. I've seen more Leicas out of a shop and in the loose in the last 4 days than in the previous 10 years. At a guess, I think I've seen 10: one SL, at least one M and the rest Qs. I don't think I've seen a CL, and certainly not one of the T family - though I have brought both. FWIW.

And for the record, some CL/TL lenses are made in Japan, while others are made in Germany: 60mm, and, I think, 35mm & 23mm. We may disagree about whether such lenses are better or worse than Fuji ones, but manufacturing location (since when has this been relevant in recent times between Germany and Japan?) is clear.

Edited July 5, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[Einst_Stein]

L mount allows the lens to achieve the M resolution in the or better in terms of pixels per frame, with half the frame size.

So I assume Leica can produce the new CL system with the size and performance similar to M. I want to think it works and feels like M system with the exception of EVF instead of OVF, and of course with AF capable.

 

[colonel]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

MTF curves? controlled test shots? I think your opinion would not be sustainable.

"Sharp" is not a measurable optical property I fear, but a subjective layman term, widely misused.

Sorry old chap

have a look at the MTF curves yourself and have a look at reviews of both lenses on the same web site

 

[jaapv]

Which one? Personally I can't be bothered. I've only owned one Fuji in all my life - and it was rebranded as Leica.

Anyway, opinions differ from yours somewhat on the Fuji forum - somehow those guys aren't as brand-blinkered as we are over here, sometimes.

https://www.fuji-x-forum.com/topic/1694-fuji-vs-leica-lens/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[FlashGordonPhotography]

15 hours ago, colonel said:

Pick any one of those lenses, for example the Fuji 18-55mm is £595 and the Leica 18-56mm is £1,400. The Fuji is a better lens as it’s just as sharp and goes to f2.8.

 

Not with the lenses I own. The Fuji has the advantage of IS. That's it. My 18-56 is not as sharp as my 18-55. This is my second copy of the Fuji. The first was awful. This one is very good. My 10-24 and 55-200 Fuji's aren't close to the Leica's. The macro is stunning and the 56mm 1.2 is spectacular. The "pro" zooms are fab but much larger and heavier.

The Fuji's are fine lenses. No dispute there. But I much prefer the way the CL lenses draw. 

Gordon

[M.piras]

My opinion is perfect lens does not exist only exist the lens able to handle and draw the light in the nearest way of my thought, of my creativity. There are some lenses on fuji  really perfectly coupled with fuji sensor and there are some leica lenses really beautyfully coupled with cl sensor. As I wrote many times CL lenses are not in my chord for texture and rendering, instead M lenses are so spectacular.i think is completely unuseful to search for a "number" ed able to explain or justify this my feeling...we have to accept that actually we are living a new flowery time of mirror less camera and indipendently by the brand or optical and mechanical  solution, we have to TEST which solution is more melted to our creativity, to our feelings.fuji -Panasonic -leica -Canon....they are just the brush we have to use to paint our picture. 

Matteo