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In the past many beautiful line produce by Leica has been discontinued because the lack of customers. How much is the selling power of the CL/TL line in comparison to other Leica line such as M, SL and S or the compact one's?

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Only Leica knows. In general, I would guess (without having any data) that the CL will be outselling the TL2 by a fair margin.

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Posted (edited)

Only Leica knows, indeed.  I have always assumed some of Leica's price premium is driven by their small production runs.  If so, they are set up economically to handle small sales volumes quite well. 

Then, we have some assurance from the L-mount Alliance, which looks like a shrewd business move to achieve scale in a diminishing market.

The remaining question for us CL users is, will Leica continue with and further develop the APS-C format -- e.g. will there be a CL2 which embodies the advances in sensor and EVF technology as they evolve -- or will Leica move up market as phone cameras continue to encroach?

After all, the human eye is smaller than just about any high-quality camera today, so perhaps that size is the endpoint of resolution and lens quality to be achieved.

Edited by rob_w

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Hello everyone, in my personal opinion (lurked by the forums and aritcles all world around) CL is not a Best Seller and it is  demostrated by the market tendencies such us NO big disponibility of thirdy parties accessories no no great articles on magazines and also LFI don't dedicate so many pages comparing to Q/Q2- M  cameras. CL is a little more used than SL (SL is proibitive weight for the most) but much less than Q/Q2 and M or other brand APS-C mirrorless. notice i didn't speak about price, as all of you can clearly understand, if we choose LEICA is no matter of price.

CL is an advantgarde camera in my opinion, but is designated to be tecnologically surpassed really easily, this make it less appetible than any other APS-C on the market. L-mount will be like R-mount : "wonderfull but always less than M" . I think if you want to save your investment CL MUST be used with M lenses (i know I am ripetitive but I think is the strongest power  of CL) in this way will always be possible to use them on other system  like M or also any other brand anyone could decide to migrate.

Obviously this can't be true for everyone and for any photo genre.

M.P.

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My yesterday tread seems a prophecy: this morning on Leica rumours the Leica CEO Matthias Harsch announced ( as part of restructuring process ) the elimination of 100 jobs out of the actual 800 to be able to face the “ second digital revolution “ and that a Leica phone is conceivable considering that “ the camera function with smart phone is a core business of our future”.

so how will be the future of CL and TL?

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The same as any other (mirrorless) camera in the world, I would say.

I don't think that there was anything specific about the CL/TL in that article.

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Huawei partnership will come to end, inevitably. Or Huawei will channel its tech into Leica phones ? avoiding US black listing ?

It is maybe insane. No chance against Apple. But worth the try ? 

CL is very nice. APS-C is really smaller. TL lenses has a sweet spot for size and quality.

SL line is crazy big, against what Leica faithful customers expect.

 

Leica just needs to deliver what most of us ask for : a Q with interchangeable lens or a small SL or a CL with 24x36

Not hard at all. Of course it will eat into M10 sales. So what ? better cannibalising itself, than losing customers. 

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, rob_w said:

After all, the human eye is smaller than just about any high-quality camera today, so perhaps that size is the endpoint of resolution and lens quality to be achieved.

As an optical device the eye is optically and mechanically rather poor ..... only the central vision has decent resolution and it involves a huge amount processing to address the deficiencies .... which is why we are easily fooled with optical illusions and colour issues. I think it's the realisation that so much can be remedied by software from pretty basic optical equipment that is driving things forward. 

Anyway ..... the CL strikes me as the ideal form factor for an interchangeable lens 'proper' camera and if APS-C sensors can approach the resolution, DR and low light performance of current FF sensors then I for one would forgo my S1R/SL.

Unfortunately lens size will always be the issue with the traditional camera approach ..... narrow DOF requires fast apertures and if you want that as well, lens dimensions start to balloon again.

Despite the Phone Camera revolution there will still be a significant % of times where circumstances will need a conventional camera to achieve quality imagery...... to the standard that most people on this forum would want, anyway ....:huh:

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I agree with all the minimising camera size matters. So a so nice product as CL is a peaty see it not successful. A Q with interchangeable lens is nice but with which size of lenses? The SL ones?☹️

Anyway a 100 jobs cut scares me...

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It is being discussed in Barnack's bar. 100 jobs lost through rationalizing production, 60 jobs gained by expanding the IT side. To me it sounds like getting the company in shape to face the future.

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Posted (edited)

we are still using 30-40-50 yr old leicas and beyond...while inevitably models change, get updated and get surpassed, a good camera is still good whatever the future brings......don't fret the details....buy what you like and keep using it....unless you suffer from GAS   gear acquisition syndrome...perhaps you are better with other manufacturers then   🙂

For example , my 10 yr old low megapixel X1 still produces great images...even though it is comprehensively beaten on specs, speed, tech and just about everything else by most cheap compacts......still not selling it...I love it !

 

Edited by johntobias

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I don't worry about things like this. The CL proves to be the best Leica for most of what I want to do yet, I'll be using it a long while. I might even buy a second body if I find I use it enough. I have all the lenses I need, and it has the performance and features I want. 

Leica will have future products that I find compelling enough too, I'm sure. When the time comes that I want something more.. if it does. 

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5 hours ago, Vip said:

I agree with all the minimising camera size matters. So a so nice product as CL is a peaty see it not successful. A Q with interchangeable lens is nice but with which size of lenses? The SL ones?☹️

Anyway a 100 jobs cut scares me...

Not sure why you are saying that CL is a not successful.

It sells reasonably well. It is not Q sales number for sure. But Q is a lucky accident. Just like the M6 before it. And the M3 more than half a century ago. 

Not sure to see Q2 beating the original Q sales. 

Latest real failures are X Vario (crazy bad marketing and slow lens) ; X (huge body and weird variable aperture fixed lens) and T (firmware not ready for prime time. Fuelling bad first impression syndrom). X line was killed to create CL. T line got a last chance with TL2 (thanks to sharing all new parts with CL) 

 

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I think the job cuts are part of a rationalization plan because Blackstone wants to sell its 45% stake in the company, and they have to dress it up/make it more attractive to a potential buyer.

It will be interesting to see who such a buyer might be: a camera-oriented company or a luxury goods-oriented company (such as LVMH or Richemont), because that might indicate what the broad future of Leica overall (not just TL, CL) will be.

As far as the CL is concerned, I have said in another posting on this forum that I think the next generation of CL needs IBIS.  If  Leica's goal is to keep lenses small in keeping with the Leica tradition of "pocketable" film Leicas, the lenses have to mostly be fairly slow lenses.  To offset that, they need IBIS in the camera body.   Not everyone is going to buy the large-ish 35mm 1.4 prime or owns small prime M lenses.  For those of us using the TL zooms, IBIS really becomes necessary, especially if you want to take advantage of the excellent sensor quality at base ISO of 100.  I have also said that I won't buy a CL2 if it doesn't have IBIS, and I remain of that view.  My adventure with/investment in the CL system will stop here (18-56, 11-23, 23 f/2) if they don't add IBIS.  I know Leica doesn't think it has to have the most technologically current cameras to be able to compete, but I disagree.  The "purist" ethic will only carry Leica so far, particularly as their older customer base passes out of the picture and they have to appeal more to a younger customer base (which I am not a member of).

I really hope that whoever Blackstone sells to, they "get" the Leica mystique, but at the same time are willing to invest in bringing Leica to a point as technologically advanced as the rest of the camera industry.

And, one last rant: Leica needs to start responding to customer requests for simple fixes such as a software update to enable the option of locking the focus box in the center of the image without locking all the other functions. Perhaps not everyone cares about this, but I for one am tired of finding the focus box all the way at the far edge of my screen due to an over-sensitive four-way controller, and I don't want to lock all the other functions such as aperture control or exposure comp.  It's probably only one additional line of code in the firmware.  C'mon Leica- how hard is this?

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After years with IBIS (Olympus time) or OIS (Sony time). Then years without any IS (my current Leica time)

I can say that for my type of photography, IS is mostly a marketing gimmick. Because it is not so useful and it is detrimental to image quality. Just try without it for a change. 

High shutter speed, Tripod or Flash are 100% reliable. But IS is not reliable all the time. Worst, with bigger sensor and/or large megapixel counts, it will be less effective. 

IS is useless with living people or animals. Of course IS is great with dead stuff. 

I want to be sure to get a sharp picture, not at random time. So no IS for me. 

 

Of course long lenses should have OIS, just to act as a monopod and stabilised the viewing, for better AF or MF. 

 

Just to say, that I rather get a fast lens without IS, than a slow lens with IBIS or OIS. 

 

 

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Just to get back to the subject. I fear not about the CL sales.

It must be good enough to be granted its second special limited edition : Urban Jungle by Jean Pigozzi. After the rather nice looking Bauhaus.

Only best selling Leica cameras get their limited edition. That's why you never seen X, X Vario, T or X-U special edition. 

But you get plenty of M-P 240, M Monochrom 246, Q , M10 and now CL ones. 

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I am not an “gas gear acquisition syndrome “

8 hours ago, johntobias said:

we are still using 30-40-50 yr old leicas and beyond...while inevitably models change, get updated and get surpassed, a good camera is still good whatever the future brings......don't fret the details....buy what you like and keep using it....unless you suffer from GAS   gear acquisition syndrome...perhaps you are better with other manufacturers then   🙂

For example , my 10 yr old low megapixel X1 still produces great images...even though it is comprehensively beaten on specs, speed, tech and just about everything else by most cheap compacts......still not selling it...I love it !

 

But buying an Leica is not only an hobby, or work but also an important investment where the customer expects long lasting values, (such as been able to buy lenses accessories not necessarily immediately after the body and the first lens but even at later time without searching an used ones in good condition) and be reinsured about obtaining repairs service even after years  

I already have the bad experience of the R sistem where I had waited almost 20 years before been able to resurrect lenses on M 240 

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Leica stops R production in March 2009

They announced M 240 in September 2012. Available in April 2013. Only 4 years of wait. In the mean time R9 + Digital-Modul-R still work. 

M 240 + Visoflex + M-Adapter-L was the first step to a final solution. Then in October 2015 the SL + R-Adapter-L was the definite answer. 

Nowhere near a 20 years of wait. Only 4 to 6 years. Long time but it is quite OK, when you see that Hasselblad took Leica by surprise, purchasing Imacon (the main supplier of Digital-Modul-R) and stopping all contracts with Leica. Sealing the death of R line. 

By the way, most recent R lenses command such a high price ! Faithful R owner should have a way to be awarded. 

I am planning to buy my very first R lens for my CL. Either the Summilux-R 80mm or the APO-Macro-Elmarit-R 100mm. So R line is not dead. And CL even less. 

L-Mount is the future of Leica. Because it can handle with adapters all Leica mounts : LTM, M, R, S, SL or TL.

They will stick with it for sure. 

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7 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Just to get back to the subject. I fear not about the CL sales.

It must be good enough to be granted its second special limited edition : Urban Jungle by Jean Pigozzi. After the rather nice looking Bauhaus.

Only best selling Leica cameras get their limited edition. That's why you never seen X, X Vario, T or X-U special edition. 

But you get plenty of M-P 240, M Monochrom 246, Q , M10 and now CL ones. 

Leica X2 special edition: Paul Smith.

BTW I think the Leica Sofort Jean Pigozzi looks better, given the type of camera.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Just to get back to the subject. I fear not about the CL sales.

It must be good enough to be granted its second special limited edition : Urban Jungle by Jean Pigozzi. After the rather nice looking Bauhaus.

Only best selling Leica cameras get their limited edition. That's why you never seen X, X Vario, T or X-U special edition. 

But you get plenty of M-P 240, M Monochrom 246, Q , M10 and now CL ones. 

Apparently you have been misinformed:

Edited by saintsteve

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