Leica IIIa serial out of the usual batches (Last?)

[tranquilo67]

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Hi,

One of the cameras that I had still pending was a IIIa. Keeping an eye on something interesting, without the investment (and the risk of being a fake) of a black one or a "Monte en Sarre", I found this one in a really lovely condition.

It's serial is 357220 which is in one of those sets of "unknown/probably not used" in every list I've checked (I know that lists can be not 100% reliable). It's 20 numbers beyond the last number of the last documented batch. So it could be one of the last, if not the last IIIa (at least Wetzlar ones).

It belonged for many years to the Biology department of Munster University. When it was replaced by a newer technology, it was acquired by an old professor who sold it to my seller. So at least, part of its history is clear. I'm still investigating if the University was its first owner.

I've researched a bit about the serial number but I haven't been able to get any conclusion about it. I've seen near serials of Monte en Sarre, FF 250 etc. but nothing concrete and even more having in mind that those sets of numbers in some cases have been used for fakes, so any comment will be very much appreciated.

And now the pictures

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Edited May 22, 2019 by tranquilo67

[willeica]

There is nothing unusual about this. It is just 20 places beyond the last issue number for a IIIa in the series 356701- 357200. The series 357201- 358500 has nothing against it,  but IIIas seem to have been produced again in the series 360001-360100, so the the issue of a IIIa with the SN 357220 is not really surprising, as Leica always would have used available SNs.

William

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[tranquilo67]

53 minutes ago, willeica said:

There is nothing unusual about this. It is just 20 places beyond the last issue number for a IIIa in the series 356701- 357200. The series 357201- 358500 has nothing against it,  but IIIas seem to have been produced again in the series 360001-360100, so the the issue of a IIIa with the SN 357220 is not really surprising, as Leica always would have used available SNs.

William

Hi William,

Thank you for your comment.

May I asked where that information about serials 360001-360100 comes from? I have seen no reference at all about that, and that set of 100 serial numbers that you mention, is usually considered part of the 425 samples production of the IIId and of course made quite earlier:  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Leica_IIId

In parallel, my understanding is that those "20 places beyond the last issue in that series" (that is not a normal series, it's the last batch) to me at least sounds very unusual, even more when in very closed serial numbers I've seen (here in this forum) Monte en Sarre samples or other type of complete different cameras.

So I'm still supporting my point that this can be one of the last, if not the last one, at least from the Wetzlar ones (I mean I don't know how the date of this one will be regarding the "Monte en Sarre" ones).

Best regards

 

[willeica]

It is m

15 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

Hi William,

Thank you for your comment.

May I asked where that information about serials 360001-360100 comes from?

It is on the table at page 317 of the 'Blue Book'. To put the matter beyond doubt, I suggest that you contact the Leica Archives via Leica AG. It is not unusual for unused serial numbers to have been used for single items. You cannot speak with any certainty about items produced by Leica in that era, I'm afraid, unless you actually have the item in your hand. Something like one IIIa in a batch of IIIds would not be unheard of. Recently I discussed a chrome Hektor from a batch of nickel items with Jim Lager and he pointed out that he too had chrome examples from the same batch in his Lens Book. That is one of the wonderful things about collecting old Leicas. Just when you think that you know it all, then along comes the exception to disprove your certainty.

William

[tranquilo67]

Hi again,

I don't have it but I'll try to get it.

In that case, would those eventual IIIa have been delivered in the IIId period (war, that by the way it could make sense) or re-used in the early 50's as isolated non-assigned numbers?

Agree that the cameras in the "unknown" sets need to be examined one by one and get confirmation from Leica. I already wrote them about this camera and I'm waiting for their response. Let's see. Anyway and till further clear evidence, I'm still supporting my point.

Once more, thank you and best regards.

PS: About the exceptions, I have an standard black (I opened a thread about it) that in all relevant lists appear as chrome and Leica confirmed that it was delivered as black so I'm aware of that.

Edited May 22, 2019 by tranquilo67

[willeica]

5 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

in the IIId period

This was a very short run and it cannot be regarded as ever forming part of mainstream production. The IIIc , on the other hand, was produced from 1940 through to 1951 and was the main production camera during the 1940s. There were 427 IIIds as against 133,626 IIIcs. You are talking here about a very small SN overlap, which is not beyond the bounds of possibility. Again, the Blue Book shows  a number of IIIa batches as having been produced in the late 1940s eg  356701-356550 was produced in 1947-48 and 356701-357200 was produced in 1948-50 , whereas the batch with a higher group of SNs 360001-360100 is shown as having been produced much earlier in 1940-42. My guess is that your camera is from the late 1940s and that Leica used a previously unused number for it. It may even have been a one off order or part of one. Leica SNs just before or after WWII regularly show mysterious variations. I know this because I have done a study of the postwar sharkskin models, which I have detailed in another post on this forum. There was a lot of 'back and forward' with the SNs for those models as well.

William

[alan mcfall]

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An interesting camera. I have IIIa No. 357049. Band 1, about 90% trustworthy shows the final IIIa lot to be 356701-357186. A abnormally large lot for this period, and not doubt a possible "catch-all" for any later- on production from left-over parts, ect.  Laney and others show 357200 as the final IIIa. This lot is shown to be from 1950, long after the post war IIIc started. The lot 360001-360100 is clearly not a IIIa lot, as dozens of IIId's show up here, so I think it is an error. Band I shows literally hundereds of non IIIc cameras after 360001, but I have never recored one. I again believe this list is in error. If anyone has a IIIa or IIIb  over 360001, please let us see it.

What is most interesting is the fact your camera has the Nr. for the serial rather than the No. of this period.  The Nr. did not start until mid-1951 or so. With the DBP and GMBH aperaring by 1952. This suggests your camera was later than 1951, either assembeled from left over parts, or returned to the factory for a new top plate. Either way a very late IIIa. The probabability there is a single IIIa with higher serial is moderate, the probability of many (10+) cameras with higher serials is very low.

Edited May 22, 2019 by alan mcfall
typo

[tranquilo67]

Ah!! Ok, now I understand your point.

My guess (and it's only a guess till I'll get the confirmation from Leica), is that my IIIa was made right after the batch of 356701-357200, so in 1950-1951 despite those numbers below the 400000 were mainly used before 1946.

So, if we assume that the last documented is the 357200 produced in 1950 and mine would have been produced after that there would be no documented IIIa later than mine (even when there are serial numbers higher than mine, but those would have been manufactured previously).

Hope now it's more clear why I'm claiming that mine could be one of the last IIIa if not the last even when there are serials higher than mine.

[tranquilo67]

19 minutes ago, alan mcfall said:

An interesting camera. I have IIIa No. 357049. Band 1, about 90% trustworthy shows the final IIIa lot to be 356701-357186. A abnormally large lot for this period, and not doub a possible "catch-all" for any later- on production from left-over parts, ect.  Laney and others show 357200 as the final IIIa. This lot is shown to be from 1950, long after the post war IIIc started. The lot 360001-360100 is clearly not a IIIa lot, as dozens of IIId's show up here, so I think it is an error. Band I shows literally hundereds of non IIIc cameras after 360001, but I have never recored one. I again believe this list is in error. If anyone has a IIIa or IIIb  over 360001, please let us see it.

What is most interesting is the fact your camera has the Nr. for the serial rather than the No. of this period.  The Nr. did not start until mid-1951 or so. With the DBP and GMBH aperaring by 1952. This suggests your camera was later than 1951, either assembeled from left over parts, or returned to the factory for a new top plate. Either way a very late IIIa.

Thank you very much for the clarification.

By the way, I haven't got aware of the "Nr." instead of the "No." engraving. Another point to consider. Thank you very much. Anyway, I've been requested to send pictures to Leica together with my request, so once more, let's see.

Best regards

[willeica]

1 hour ago, tranquilo67 said:

Thank you very much for the clarification.

By the way, I haven't got aware of the "Nr." instead of the "No." engraving. Another point to consider. Thank you very much. Anyway, I've been requested to send pictures to Leica together with my request, so once more, let's see.

Best regards

Let us know how this turns out. I believe that based on the evidence so far that this is a post war IIIa (and therefore a very late one) which has a previously unused SN. It would be interesting to see what client took delivery of this one, as by 1950/51 the IIIc was already established for 10 or 11 years and the IIIf BD was on the horizon. It would also be interesting to see if this was a single order or part of a multiple order. 

I accept, based on what Alan says, that the 36xxxx batch for IIIas, shown in the Blue Book, is a mistake.

William

[jerzy]

Am 22.5.2019 um 18:20 schrieb tranquilo67:

my IIIa was made right after the batch of 356701-357200, so in 1950-1951

beautiful camera! When doing research on my IIIb 357109 15 years ago Leica send me a copy of delivery record, copy included as well other cameras with close numbers.
Majority of these cameras were sold internally, to employees, notice personal number behind the name.

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Cameras above were produced June_September 1950, it is very probable that your could be from 1951 and be possibly within last IIIa.

Btw, my 357109 is listed above as IIIa,  but was deffinitevly IIIb from very beginning, being probably  the last IIIb produced - records were not always accurate

[willeica]

3 hours ago, jerzy said:

beautiful camera! When doing research on my IIIb 357109 15 years ago Leica send me a copy of delivery record, copy included as well other cameras with close numbers.
Majority of these cameras were sold internally, to employees, notice personal number behind the name.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Cameras above were produced June_September 1950, it is very probable that your could be from 1951 and be possibly within last IIIa.

Btw, my 357109 is listed above as IIIa,  but was deffinitevly IIIb from very beginning, being probably  the last IIIb produced - records were not always accurate

Thanks Jerzy. Leica Archives usually do not give out purchasers' names, just dealer names. The reason could be related to GDPR, 70 years later! Are you certain about the personnel numbers? Those 5 digit numbers look a bit like the order numbers which they give out from time to time. For example, I have cameras from 1949 supplied under order numbers 18505, 22189, 22380 and 23531. The numbers above would seem to follow in sequence, either beginning with 29, 30, 31 or 32. Also the final column seems to have dealer names against most purchases. Would be interested in your views on this.

William

[jerzy]

it was 15 years ago, William, now they do not do it anymore.

It was my guess about personal number, based on:
- person named in line 357109 was evidently employee (optical lab - Optik, Versuch.)
- camera was purchased by him (more details in Viewfinder from 2016)
- 357108 went to another person from same dept.

But analysing this delivery record more carefully I think you are right with order number

[willeica]

 

2 hours ago, jerzy said:

it was 15 years ago, William, now they do not do it anymore.

It was my guess about personal number, based on:
- person named in line 357109 was evidently employee (optical lab - Optik, Versuch.)
- camera was purchased by him (more details in Viewfinder from 2016)
- 357108 went to another person from same dept.

But analysing this delivery record more carefully I think you are right with order number

It is interesting that supplies to employees would have had formal order numbers. This list also confirms that Leica went back to previously unused numbers when issuing 'non current' models in the early 1950s. The OP's camera may, indeed, be one of the very last IIIas produced and only the Archives can confirm whether it is the very last. When I visited the Archives last year, the very last IIIf was pointed out to us in the record books. It had gone out to a number of identified purchasers, but was returned by them, presumably because they all wanted an M3 at that stage.

William

[tranquilo67]

Thank you very much to both.

It's always great to see things like an original page of the books. And those jumps in the number make the things more interesting and challenging otherwise, amateur collector's life would be too easy ☺️.

Still no information back. I'll keep you updated about the answer.

Once more, thank you and best regards

 

[tranquilo67]

Hi all,

I committed to share with you the answer from Leica.

The delivery date for this IIIa is November 1965 and it was delivered to a private person. I've asked for double confirmation on that due to it would mean that my camera was delivered more that five years after the production of the screw mount had finished and yes, it has been confirmed.

That means this camera can be one of the last (if not the true last) screw mount camera ever delivered from Leica and yes, it appears as a IIIa in the books. It's in the books with a "note number".

I'm not going to say "hope this will clarify" because in my opinion, this, far from clarifying anything, introduces a new set of questions about IIIg as the last screw mount camera and the whole screw mount family production (or at least delivery) dates.

As always, any comment or light is very welcome!!

[jerzy]

About mid sixties Leitz was "cleaning" their inventory of screwmount. Cameras used for internal purposes, Betriebskameras, were refurbished and unused SN has been assigned. Cameras were sold, most probably internally, to employees. Until now I knew about such cameras being IIIf with SN 3976xx, your might be as well such. SN assigned fits more to regular Postwar IIIa than to IIIf.

my IIIf 3976xx has replaced top cover, added flash and self timer and was former Betriebskameras 060 with original markings still existing under top cover. So you camera might be as well originating from Betriebskameras. Possibly original marks are hidden under top cover.

highly interesting camera! Congratulations!

[tranquilo67]

13 hours ago, jerzy said:

About mid sixties Leitz was "cleaning" their inventory of screwmount. Cameras used for internal purposes, Betriebskameras, were refurbished and unused SN has been assigned. Cameras were sold, most probably internally, to employees. Until now I knew about such cameras being IIIf with SN 3976xx, your might be as well such. SN assigned fits more to regular Postwar IIIa than to IIIf.

my IIIf 3976xx has replaced top cover, added flash and self timer and was former Betriebskameras 060 with original markings still existing under top cover. So you camera might be as well originating from Betriebskameras. Possibly original marks are hidden under top cover.

highly interesting camera! Congratulations!

Hi Jerzy,

It's a privilege to have people like you with such deep knowledge in this forum. Thank you very much!!!

Best regards

Edited July 4, 2019 by tranquilo67

[sabears]

You can find more here: last screw mount cameras were finished in about 1967-68

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266892-iiic-3976xx-former-betriebskamera/?tab=comments#comment-3156933

 

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[UliWer]

Late enough!

Almost 200 years after the American revolutionary army took over the British airports.