M10-D owners - are you happy?

[AndreasG]

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb DickieT:

Is it perfect - no. Is it close to perfect - for me it is,

Could be my words - thank you!

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[Chris]

Well for me the decision of getting a Leica M10-D was the following. I'll also post a short summary (TL;DR) at the end, as this might turn out to be a bit longer.

 

I started photography as a hobby no too long ago - ten years to be exact (2009). What started as a thought of doing something in your sparetime soon turned out to be a passion. I've started a 365 project (one photo each day) and took literally hundreds of photos each day for the first year. I regret to say that I didn't get to filter those first photos to this day.

 

Sadly, as my main profession is in computer science (IT) I'm also kind of a spec-head. The world of (digital) photography gives you many new cameras to toy with each year which makes it hard to keep the focus on the photographs itself. My first camera (an APS-C Canon 500D) was replaced by an older but full-frame Canon 5D after about a year. A year after that a more modern 5D Mark II followed.

And then I bought a film Leica. Mind you, it wasn't a thorough decision but rather an impulse purchase. On eBay I bid on a used Leica M4-P and didn't think I'd really win it. Well it turned out I did, as I later realized, because an M4-P is Canadian and some people want a Leica "Made in Germany". So I received the M4-P from one of the nicest person and didn't even have a single lens for it. One weekend later I was able to buy one in Solms at a camera fair.

And this is were I knew I had to swallow the pill. The Leica was mechanical bliss. I've taken photos with an analog Canon EOS before. But that was an electrical camera with autofocus and film in it. It felt just like the Canon 5D without a screen. The Leica was something different alltogether. I also wanted a similar digital experience. (Sidenote: The Leica M4-P is the one Leica I've never sold and plan on keeping forever. Later I was able to compare it to a Leica M3 and M4 and the M4-P is in no way in any worse than the German versions).

This was 2013.

 

By that time I also earned money by photographing events, landscape photos and just started photographing weddings along my main job. Buying a used Leica M9 seemed financially crazy in comparison to a Canon which was about half the price, but as you on this forum probably know – that doesn't stop us Leica users. 🙂 Making the money spent for the Leica taking photos was the reasoning for buying the M9. 

My M9 experience: I was amazed how bad the screen was but loved the size of the camera and that I was able to photograph a rangefinder digitally. For weddings though the M9 wasn't up to the task (atleast for the way I photographed weddings back then). So I exchanged it one year later (2014) for a Leica M240. The M240 was a much more modern camera with a (in my opinion) better sensor and of course better screen. But it was also thicker, heavier and somehow didn't feel quite right. What I disliked the most were bars in photos when shooting against the sun (I believe those were the shutter blinds and it happens only occasionally). Sidenote: I also photographed weddings with this M240 and a Fuji X-T1.

 

This is were things took another turn. I sold the M240 as I did with cameras often since I took up photography and which I regret in hindsight. The reason was a Fuji X-Pro2 that felt similar to the Leica but was much cheaper. I thought it could do everything the M240 did for me. (Having a optically viewfinder and all). The Fuji system was light and really great optics and lenses were much smaller than Canon EF lenses and had AF.

Now let me say this: The Fuji system is great – but, for professional weddings I missed the full-frame look. I know the differences are in the details but I felt I had to deliver the highest quality possible for my customers. Also I didn't want to own multiple systems.

At that time I had my analog Leicas with lenses, the Fuji system and planned on getting back into Canon for weddings. One system had to go – Fuji.

 

This is today:

I sold all Fuji gear without great losses, as everything was gladly bought used beforehand. I've got a Canon system for wedding and landscape photography which is great, as that system is robust, prices for the lenses are fair and the quality is high. Also it covers 17-600mm iwith multiple lenses. Second system (but without interchangable lenses) is a Ricoh GR II – It's one of the best pocketable cameras I've owned, if you are aware that it comes with a fixed 28mm lens. And the third system for non-commercial photography I got is the Leica M system.

 

What do I make off this all? (TL;DR):

Playing the "I got the newest digital camera game" with Leica is madness. Eventhough prices are quite stable buying used and selling used leads to big losses. Mind you: Cameras of other brands (eg. Canon) seem to get more expensive as well.

What do I think about the M10-D? (TL;DR2)

The M10-D is a timeless classic from the outside (case, dials etc.). The digital sensor of course makes this a mute argument, but as some M9 users have shown, you can take outstanding images, even with older digital cameras. For me personally it's my attempt of staying with one camera for a long time.* That was the reason I wanted the Leica M10-D to be my first "bought-new"/first-owner Leica. The M10-D will not be a camera I use for weddings and doesn't have to be. I'll be able to have newer Canon or whatever cameras, but the Leica M10-D will be mostly timeless.

*Personal circumstances: The M10-D was released during the time my wife was pregnant with our first child. I wanted to have an instant classic of a camera from that time and during the time he will be growing up.

To sum it up: I highly recommend the M10-D if you want a camera that is special. Of course you can also get a M10 and take the same photos, but you have to answer the question if less (but special) is worth it for you.

 

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[MRJohn]

5 hours ago, Chris said:

Well for me the decision of getting a Leica M10-D was the following. I'll also post a short summary (TL;DR) at the end, as this might turn out to be a bit longer.

....

What do I think about the M10-D? (TL;DR2)

The M10-D is a timeless classic from the outside (case, dials etc.). The digital sensor of course makes this a mute argument, but as some M9 users have shown, you can take outstanding images, even with older digital cameras. For me personally it's my attempt of staying with one camera for a long time.* That was the reason I wanted the Leica M10-D to be my first "bought-new"/first-owner Leica. The M10-D will not be a camera I use for weddings and doesn't have to be. I'll be able to have newer Canon or whatever cameras, but the Leica M10-D will be mostly timeless.

*Personal circumstances: The M10-D was released during the time my wife was pregnant with our first child. I wanted to have an instant classic of a camera from that time and during the time he will be growing up.

To sum it up: I highly recommend the M10-D if you want a camera that is special. Of course you can also get a M10 and take the same photos, but you have to answer the question if less (but special) is worth it for you.

 

Thanks for the passionate essay! 

[AndreasG]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Chris:

And then I bought a film Leica. Mind you, it wasn't a thorough decision but rather an impulse purchase. On eBay I bid on a used Leica M4-P and didn't think I'd really win it. Well it turned out I did, as I later realized, because an M4-P is Canadian and some people want a Leica "Made in Germany". So I received the M4-P from one of the nicest person and didn't even have a single lens for it.

Chris,

we got something in common, my first Leica was also a M4-P, which I bought second hand without lens (though already in 1986), and the Summicron followed little later. Two M6 bodies came next, together with several lenses and recently I got the M10-D, for the same reasons you explained very well above. Just noticed, the serials of the M4-Ps are pretty close.

best regards

Andreas

Déjà-vu

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[Chris]

Thanks John and Andreas for taking the time to read my waffling and for your feedback! 🙂

Andreas, the coincidence is great. A lovely camera and a lovely lens!

[Guest]

On 4/12/2019 at 6:52 PM, petermullett said:

.......... but in the many decades that I've owned all sorts of gear, many cameras, I've yet to find one that's "perfect"......and probably never will so I just get on with what works for me and with the M10-D that's more than enough to float my boat.

 

Since posting this the other week I've been thinking whether there were any cameras that have come close to perfect for me, and yes perhaps there was......sorry not a Leica M, close, but no cigar, at least not yet.

However the late 60's into the 70's gave us the Nikon Ftn's, these cameras were to my mind, and for my usage at the time, close to perfect with only the rather flakey metering in the finder prism being the weakest thing, but then you always metered off-camera with the in-camera metering being a back-up for meters lost, forgotten / left back at home base. The cameras were pretty much indestructible, the finder was/is still great and the Ai lenses the time were really quite exceptional. I still own two of the Ftn's that I used back then, never been serviced, used extensively, professionally, world wide for magazine and advertising work, location and studio, the two still with me are slightly battered but still perfectly functional, ( except of course for the meter )!

My M's from back then, primarily M3's, were great, no question....but not as reliable and unbreakable as the Ftn's.

So.........

 

[pico]

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[al02052]

Yes, I am happy. I chose it because the thumb grip cocking lever that’s much much better than thumbs up + grip, in my opinion. 

In the past I got M9-P, Monochrom CCD, Monochrom Typ 246, CL, Q and never used live view or image check. For me the screen is ok only for menu setting. 

Due the fact I shoot B&W only I would be interested to M10 Monochrom, but only if it will have the thumb lever. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 4/23/2019 at 8:49 PM, petermullett said:

....However the late 60's into the 70's gave us the Nikon Ftn's, ...

My M's from back then, primarily M3's, were great, no question....but not as reliable and unbreakable as the Ftn's.

The F's were the perfect ones.  The meter just got in the way.  And all of the pros dumping their Leicas for Nikons in those years made the M2 that I picked up about then dirt cheap. It worked for many years, and I only found out during a clean-and-refurb much later that it had been underwater before I got it.

[RF’sDelight]

I’m as satisfied with the M10-D as a Leica M nerd can be. The Visoflex comes into play only for the extreme focal lengths (16–21, 135). From here I only wish for a M10 Monochrom.

Here are my three black chrome milestones (among other Ms on the way, skipping everything M240). Cheers!

1988 – Leica M6
2007 – Leica M8
2018 – Leica M10-D

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[mb_p]

Yes, I'm very happy with my M10-D. I agonised for several months whether to get the M10-P or the M10-D. I read all the reviews and comments I could find. I bought the M10-D 3 weeks ago, so fairly new but I certainly don't regret my decision. I traded my M6 TTL (2000), M9 (2010) and M Mono (2014) to consolidate.

For me, I needed to be satisfied that I could use the camera without needing to use the Fotos App while out shooting. If for basic operation, I had to use my phone, this would have put me off. But just on the camera, I can change ISO setting, exposure compensation, speed, aperture, focus and also see battery level and remaining SD card capacity in the viewfinder. This is enough. It is good to be able to later review shots, and also to set things like white balance, but these are operations I don't need to do all the time. When I do review photos, I do find my iPhone X screen to be much better than I would find the M10-P screen anyway.

I love not having the distraction of a screen. The M10-D reminds me a lot of my M6 TTL in terms of size and even appearance. It doesn't obviously look like a digital camera and that also affects the way you use it. The M10, M10-P and M240 to me feels more like a piece of "consumer electronics" - (a bit harsh, I know!). I know many people will find it odd that I prefer to not to have a screen, but I do think that in most cases it does force you to concentrate more on actual picture taking and is a bit more "purist".

The M10-D is not perfect. My 3 issues are:

1. The Fotos App WiFi connection to the camera is not 100% reliable. Sometimes it will loose the connection and I have to connect again.

2. As I have 2 6-bit coded lenses and 1 non coded, I would like the ability in the Fotos App to be able to set a default lens for the case where my non coded lens is mounted (APO-Summicron 1:2/90 ASPH). As it is, this lens is wrongly detected as "R-Adapter M" for the EXIF data. It just means in Lightroom I have to correct this manually to get the right EXIF and lens correction. At least I don't need to worry about this while out shooting.

3. The one thing I'd like to be able to do on the camera that currently needs the Fotos App is the ability to change metering mode (spot/center/multi-field). I think they could add this e.g.  pressing the function button and using the thumbwheel to scroll through these 3 metering modes. The mode would need to briefly show in the viewfinder while scrolling, as say | S | or | C | or |   |.

I think all of these 3 things could be addressed with a future App and firmware update.

In summary, I think the M10-D is the finest digital M that Leica has ever produced. I love it and am very happy with my choice.

[MRJohn]

13 hours ago, mb_p said:

Yes, I'm very happy with my M10-D. I agonised for several months whether to get the M10-P or the M10-D. I read all the reviews and comments I could find. I bought the M10-D 3 weeks ago, so fairly new but I certainly don't regret my decision. I traded my M6 TTL (2000), M9 (2010) and M Mono (2014) to consolidate.

For me, I needed to be satisfied that I could use the camera without needing to use the Fotos App while out shooting. If for basic operation, I had to use my phone, this would have put me off. But just on the camera, I can change ISO setting, exposure compensation, speed, aperture, focus and also see battery level and remaining SD card capacity in the viewfinder. This is enough. It is good to be able to later review shots, and also to set things like white balance, but these are operations I don't need to do all the time. When I do review photos, I do find my iPhone X screen to be much better than I would find the M10-P screen anyway.

I love not having the distraction of a screen. The M10-D reminds me a lot of my M6 TTL in terms of size and even appearance. It doesn't obviously look like a digital camera and that also affects the way you use it. The M10, M10-P and M240 to me feels more like a piece of "consumer electronics" - (a bit harsh, I know!). I know many people will find it odd that I prefer to not to have a screen, but I do think that in most cases it does force you to concentrate more on actual picture taking and is a bit more "purist".

The M10-D is not perfect. My 3 issues are:

1. The Fotos App WiFi connection to the camera is not 100% reliable. Sometimes it will loose the connection and I have to connect again.

2. As I have 2 6-bit coded lenses and 1 non coded, I would like the ability in the Fotos App to be able to set a default lens for the case where my non coded lens is mounted (APO-Summicron 1:2/90 ASPH). As it is, this lens is wrongly detected as "R-Adapter M" for the EXIF data. It just means in Lightroom I have to correct this manually to get the right EXIF and lens correction. At least I don't need to worry about this while out shooting.

3. The one thing I'd like to be able to do on the camera that currently needs the Fotos App is the ability to change metering mode (spot/center/multi-field). I think they could add this e.g.  pressing the function button and using the thumbwheel to scroll through these 3 metering modes. The mode would need to briefly show in the viewfinder while scrolling, as say | S | or | C | or |   |.

I think all of these 3 things could be addressed with a future App and firmware update.

In summary, I think the M10-D is the finest digital M that Leica has ever produced. I love it and am very happy with my choice.

Thanks, I couldn't agree more. -  BTW, I did raise the opportunity of metering mode (your point 3) selection with Leica a few weeks ago and was told they would probably not include it since they want to keep the M10-D as simple as possible. I would suggest you write to them nevertheless. The more folks raise it the more we might be able to persuade them.

[IkarusJohn]

18 hours ago, mb_p said:

3. The one thing I'd like to be able to do on the camera that currently needs the Fotos App is the ability to change metering mode (spot/center/multi-field). I think they could add this e.g.  pressing the function button and using the thumbwheel to scroll through these 3 metering modes. The mode would need to briefly show in the viewfinder while scrolling, as say | S | or | C | or |   |.

Excuse the snip.

I can't see how this would work (save when using the Fotos App as a remote - is that what you meant?).  Without the EVF attached, the M10 (in all forms) uses the traditional centre weighted metering, reading off the shutter.   On the digital M cameras, it's the white(ish) central band and the two grey brands on the blinds above and below the central blind.  On film M's, it's the white dot on the curtain.  Unless the shutter is open (with the EVF attached or when using the Fotos App as a remote) the camera can't do anything other than centre weighted metering as the shutter is closed (unlike the L mount cameras).

To have spot metering or multi-field without the EVF in place would mean that you had to have the App connected and remote activated ... I'm guessing Leica thinks that's too hard for too limited use.  I can see that if I'm using a tripod and my iPhone as a remote, I might want to have multi-field exposure metering, but if I'm going to that much trouble, I will consider taking an incident reading and probably bracketing.  I wouldn't see myself using spot in that circumstance.  I guess Live View on the standard M10 & M10-P doesn't have this limitation.

It may be that Leica have interpreted this request as meaning that you set the metering to spot or multi field as a general setting, for use when you're just using the OVF.  I can see why they would not want that, as it would involve opening the shutter purely for metering (as there's no Live View), when you're using the OVF.  You wouldn't know where your spot was ...

Edited May 2, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I can't see how this would work (save when using the Fotos App as a remote - is that what you meant?).  Without the EVF attached, the M10 (in all forms) uses the traditional centre weighted metering, reading off the shutter.   On the digital M cameras, it's the white(ish) central band and the two grey brands on the blinds above and below the central blind.  On film M's, it's the white dot on the curtain.  Unless the shutter is open (with the EVF attached or when using the Fotos App as a remote) the camera can't do anything other than centre weighted metering as the shutter is closed (unlike the L mount cameras).

To have spot metering or multi-field without the EVF in place would mean that you had to have the App connected and remote activated ... I'm guessing Leica thinks that's too hard for too limited use.  .

I think you've identified the philosophy that Leica is following with the M10-D -- simplicity first, but make it usable for a wider set of possible customers.  This means that enabling the use of the full portfolio of Leica lenses (many of which remain uncoded) gets a high priority in the firmware which should still be evolving.  And Fotos as a way of setting the few parameters of the camera that need to be set and then left unchanged during a day of shooting would be higher priority than Fotos as a remote controller, since WiFi+ liveview continuous use has a battery-limited duration of about an hour at most.  But I like to use the M10-D with Leica's coded 21 and 24 lenses, where the VF20 and live view are needed for accurate framing and this is a situation where the other metering modes could be useful.

So my personal list of priorities for M10-D firmware and Fotos software improvements is:

1) faster, more robust connection over WiFi with better power management and better handling of the images already on the chip (I recently heard from Leica that I must avoid having too many images, not to confuse or overload Fotos...)

2) support use of non-coded lenses

3) set some more parameter, such as the filename and copyright labelling, and fix a few bugs in this area. 

[DickieT]

Do we actually believe there is somebody at Leica listening to these requests (here and directly sent to them) and even more importantly, are they working on an update of the firmware or feature expansion in the app ? And if so - when can we expect it ?

I am 5 months into my D and I started a topic in January about desired addition features in the app. After 5 months, my key desired features have not changed:
- manual lens selection
- the freedom to create my own file numbering

It would be really nice to understand what their plan is ?

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

I submit reports of problems on Fotos and occasionally get a note back from the customer support team.  They tell me that the developers (apparently a different group) are working on M10 firmware and Fotos support.  The details that accompany the notes indicate that some information is getting through, even though the interface that Leica puts between us and their real engineers and programmers is pretty thick and non-technical.  I doubt that Leica's developers are encouraged to read this forum.  Managers might.  Like the customer support folks, their job does involve listening to us.  Sharing plans, however, is not a Leica habit.

We seem to agree on key missing functions.  And I think the engineering (power management, time to connect) can be improved, using what cellphones can do as a standard for comparison.

 

[MRJohn]

As I mentioned, they are unlikely to accommodate metering mode changes by using the camera alone. But I would still see utility if they allowed a spot measure by pressing a button or dialing a wheel (requiring LV-like shutter release with the according delay) right in the middle of the sensor/finder area. So you can then see if you want to make manual adjustments to otherwise center or multi field measures. I can live without it but would love to have it.

Fotos App support can be reached her and they are responsive.

cc-app-support <app-support@leica-camera.com>

And why not make something like this available via In-App/Firmware purchase. I'd be happy to pay 10 EUR for it and folks who don't need it would not be bothered

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by MRJohn

[mb_p]

On 5/2/2019 at 3:35 AM, IkarusJohn said:

Excuse the snip.

I can't see how this would work (save when using the Fotos App as a remote - is that what you meant?).  Without the EVF attached, the M10 (in all forms) uses the traditional centre weighted metering, reading off the shutter.   On the digital M cameras, it's the white(ish) central band and the two grey brands on the blinds above and below the central blind.  On film M's, it's the white dot on the curtain.  Unless the shutter is open (with the EVF attached or when using the Fotos App as a remote) the camera can't do anything other than centre weighted metering as the shutter is closed (unlike the L mount cameras).

To have spot metering or multi-field without the EVF in place would mean that you had to have the App connected and remote activated ... I'm guessing Leica thinks that's too hard for too limited use.  I can see that if I'm using a tripod and my iPhone as a remote, I might want to have multi-field exposure metering, but if I'm going to that much trouble, I will consider taking an incident reading and probably bracketing.  I wouldn't see myself using spot in that circumstance.  I guess Live View on the standard M10 & M10-P doesn't have this limitation.

It may be that Leica have interpreted this request as meaning that you set the metering to spot or multi field as a general setting, for use when you're just using the OVF.  I can see why they would not want that, as it would involve opening the shutter purely for metering (as there's no Live View), when you're using the OVF.  You wouldn't know where your spot was ...

Thanks @IkarusJohn. This is a good point which I'd overlooked so I should clarify my M10-D feature request (no. 3). It is the ability to set metering mode just using camera buttons (probably the Function button in combination with the thumbwheel) so that I don't have to always use the Fotos App. Yes, as you point out, metering mode doesn't apply anyway when using the rangefinder/viewfinder as that is always centre weighted but it does apply when using the Visoflex. As it is, I have to use the Fotos App to switch modes and this would be so much easier on the camera. I don't see that this is too hard. Visoflex does show the current metering mode.

Edited May 3, 2019 by mb_p
Added member name.

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[IkarusJohn]

Ah, I see your point.  Back in the day, I used to use a Gossen 1° spotmeter to get zone readings, and use those little 18% grey post-it slips to take readings (I still take incident readings when using my M-A or my SWC), but to be honest, these days I can’t be fagged.  Like using AWB, if I’m using the EVF, I leave it on multi-field metering, or I just forget and it stays centre-weighted.  As I’m taking the effort to use the EVF, I should probably use the spotmeter more - especially as you can move the spot around the image.  I would need to think, before I attached the EVF, that I needed to also change the meteriing.  A bit lazy, I guess.

[Guest]

One annoying thing I am finding about the decision of Leica to re-position the on/off/wi-fi switch to the back of the M10-D that on several occasions I have found that I have inadvertently turned the switch too far when switching the camera on and it's sat in the WiFi ON position long before I realise it........( The clue being that the camera gets warm, but of course then the battery exhausts itself really quickly then too ). I've already camera-taped the inner exposure compensation dial so that doesn't move on me again and now I'm trying to figure out how to prevent turning on the WiFi accidentally too as I rarely use it anyway.

There's nothing in any firmware update that can address what is to my mind this stupid oddity of design on Leica's part in what otherwise is a brilliant camera but I do hope that in any future MD's this inconvenient on/off/WiFi switch arrangement is reconsidered. Why they didn't leave the switch where it should be around the shutter release as on the previous MD and just have the ASA / compensation dial on the back of the camera I don't know, or at the very least why they didn't think that accidentally switching to WiFi could easily occur and build in an "idiot lock" that you have to press to turn the dial further to the WiFi position. That whole rear circular switch idea is in my opinion and experience badly conceived.