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M10-D owners - are you happy?


MRJohn

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On 4/5/2019 at 12:51 AM, sebben said:

Yes. It’s almost the perfect M. They could minimise it a bit more and then it would basically be in its perfect form. 

The ISO dial from the MD is better though. 

Can anyone explain me what the exposure compensation dial technically does on the M10-D?

It might sound like a stupid question for you more advanced photographers, but I don't understand the sense of this dial.
As I understand, from some reading on the net, EC is meant to control over- or underexposed photos caused by the camera metering.
I'm not sure, but I believe a photographer, who uses a more automatic camera (in one of the auto-modes), can quickly adjust the exposure by the EC-dial.
(Again, not sure) In this situation the EC-dial corrects the auto-settings from the camera by changing aperture - shutter-speed - ISO in order to get the desired exposure.
Some articles suggest that EC makes no sense when you use such camera in manual mode. (Because the photographer has control over the complete exposure triangle.)

So why an EC-dial on a complete manual camera like the M10-D?
And what does it technically? Sensor sensitivity?
 

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No, it just tells the meter to under or over expose depending on the setting.

Think of it this way. Say you have the camera in A mode. That’s aperture priority. You set the aperture, the camera automatically sets the shutter.  So, if a given scene, according to the meter, is 1/500 at f/5.6 (and you’ve set ISO at 200, rather than auto), you might feel that the scene is a bit bright, then you might set the EC to +2/3 of a stop, so the camera will set the shutter at 1/300.  So, you’ve “fooled” the meter into thinking it’s a bit darker than it thought.

In manual, the camera doesn’t set the aperture, but it gives you a guide in the viewfinder on exposure > o < which indicate ideal exposure.  The EC setting still fools the meter reading, it’s just that you set the aperture and the shutter in manual mode.

As it’s easy to blow the highlights, I tend to have my EC set to -2/3 as standard. It’s just habit on my part (going back to slide film).

In Auto ISO, odd things happen.  Except with the Monochrom, I tend to set the ISO at base, and leave it there unless I need to change it.

I hope this helps.

John

Edited by IkarusJohn
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I agree with the explanation above.  The exposure offset just corrects the meter reading.  Whether that affects exposure depends on the mode you choose.  M = only affects the over-under lights in the OVF.  With fixed ISO and A mode, it affects the calculated shutter speed.  With manual shutter speed set, but ISO A, it affects the ISO calculated.  With ISO A and shutter A (that's P mode, but we are all too proud to admit it) it shifts where you are on the program.

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Is it straightforward to compensate exposure on the M10-D? It seems to me that the thumbwheel can't easily be accesed with the camera at eye-level.

The thumbrest on the M-D was very intuitive to use.

Could any M10-D user please comment?

 

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4 hours ago, horosu said:

Is it straightforward to compensate exposure on the M10-D? It seems to me that the thumbwheel can't easily be accesed with the camera at eye-level.

The thumbrest on the M-D was very intuitive to use.

Could any M10-D user please comment?

 

Some prefer the back of the M-D (just ISO, like in the film cameras) to the back of the M10-D (power off/on/wifi on  plus Exposure comp), because on the M-D you could use the thumbwheel for exposure offset (as i do on my M10).  But the ISO dial on an M10 is the dedicated wheel where the M film cameras had rewind hardware, and the M10-D is made from M10 parts, so the ISO location is fixed at the top left of the body.  Also the M10s have auto ISO, which I use, and I think the M-D did not.  So the back of the M10-D is available for exposure comp.  Moving the controls on the back is best done with both thumbs, as they are stiff and not likely to move unintentionally.  And it's not hard to make small adjustments with the camera at your eye or without looking.  There are hints in the M10-D manual that the thumbwheel was intended for more glamorous things, like scrolling through menus, but FOTOS came along to do some of that, so at the moment the thumbwheel is indeed underutilized.

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33 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Some prefer the back of the M-D (just ISO, like in the film cameras) to the back of the M10-D (power off/on/wifi on  plus Exposure comp), because on the M-D you could use the thumbwheel for exposure offset (as i do on my M10).  But the ISO dial on an M10 is the dedicated wheel where the M film cameras had rewind hardware, and the M10-D is made from M10 parts, so the ISO location is fixed at the top left of the body.  Also the M10s have auto ISO, which I use, and I think the M-D did not.  So the back of the M10-D is available for exposure comp.  Moving the controls on the back is best done with both thumbs, as they are stiff and not likely to move unintentionally.  And it's not hard to make small adjustments with the camera at your eye or without looking.  There are hints in the M10-D manual that the thumbwheel was intended for more glamorous things, like scrolling through menus, but FOTOS came along to do some of that, so at the moment the thumbwheel is indeed underutilized.

So, I understand exposure compensation can't be modified with the camera at eye-level. 

It must be set prior to raising the camera.  Sadly, a very bad decision on Leica's part- another way to interrupt the "flow" of picture-taking

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1 hour ago, horosu said:

So, I understand exposure compensation can't be modified with the camera at eye-level. 

It must be set prior to raising the camera.  Sadly, a very bad decision on Leica's part- another way to interrupt the "flow" of picture-taking

I disagree.  I make changes with the camera at eye level.

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So I just got mine, I think I will like it a lot 😀. - However, a couple of early issues (maybe I haven't figured it out yet):

A: connectivity between iphone 8 and Foto app is highly erratic and takes a lot of time. Most times it does not connect. (latest FW, latest APP)

B: when formatting the SD CARD there seems no way to give the file numbering a custom number (so it does not overlap with those from my SL). Even though the manual on page  63 says: 

"Factory setting: LEICA/L100

Changes available via app."

Anybody suffers from the same or has a solution?

 

 

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I always format my SD cards in my computer, using SDFormatter.  I don't play with the numbering as all my photos are sorted by date.

The Fotos connection can be a little ... erratic.  One thing I learned was to wait until the little green light on the back of the camera stopped flashing before I tried to connect from my phone.

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10 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I disagree.  I make changes with the camera at eye level.

Are you able to reach the wheel on the back of the camera and rotate it with one finger, with the camera at eye-level?

It seems a very cumbersome procedure, for me, but then, again, I haven't got the M10-D (but pondering to buy it)

 

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Buddy, you want the camera, or not.  One finger, two thumbs?  Who cares?  If that’s how refined your requirements have become, buy an M10-P. Or, Leica will make you exactly what you want - if you ask the price, you can’t afford it ...

Leica makes what they think they will sell.  You can either get your head around what they have on offer, or you move on.  Thinking they will make exactly what you want is totally unrealistic.

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I want the camera, but I wondered how easy it would be to use it in aperture priority automatic mode, with exposure compensation (for backlit subjects, for instance)

That's all. I didn't mean to sound like I'm not believeing in gospel Leica 🙂. I had the chance to try out the M-D, and that was very intuitive to use in automatic mode. My question was simply if that was also the case with the M10-D, which I'd prefer from a purely technical point of vue (ISO, thinner, etc)

 

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horosu, basically, when one has done as much research as possible and asked as many people as is possible about the handling and performance of a camera, ( or anything else for that matter ), there comes a tipping point where you have to s*** or get off the pot..........You seem to be there or at least very close to that point.

Trying out a Leica isn't as easily done as with other more available camera brands, they are quite rare and I suspect there's few MD-10's hanging out on dealership shelves anywhere for you to be able to drop by and try one out, so perhaps you're at the cliff edge where you either step back and walk away or take the leap.

I bought my MD10 without handling one, yes I have a regular M10 but despite thinking that they'd be pretty much the same I subsequently found out that the MD10-D is really quite a different kettle of fish. Quite a few things didn't feel "quite right" at first, but that lasted less than a couple of days with the camera, and yes there's things that I really do wish were done differently but in the many decades that I've owned all sorts of gear, many cameras, I've yet to find one that's "perfect"......and probably never will so I just get on with what works for me and with the M10-D that's more than enough to float my boat.

I have zero regrets in buying the M10-D. zero. Even with disliking the reliance on the WiFi connectivity, ( I ignore it +95% of the time ), and some of the camera's physical layout, ( I got used to it ). So just go for it and see how it fits with the style of shooting that you work within, if you hate it you'll get to that quickly enough and selling it on at this time shouldn't be to onerous.

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4 hours ago, horosu said:

I want the camera, but I wondered how easy it would be to use it in aperture priority automatic mode, with exposure compensation (for backlit subjects, for instance)

That's all. I didn't mean to sound like I'm not believeing in gospel Leica 🙂. I had the chance to try out the M-D, and that was very intuitive to use in automatic mode. My question was simply if that was also the case with the M10-D, which I'd prefer from a purely technical point of vue (ISO, thinner, etc)

 

Excuse my dismissive post.  As Peter observes, you get your head around making the camera work for you.

I understand your preference for using EC on the fly, but that is just one approach. In old film terms, it’s just changing the ISO rating to fool the meter.  As a standard approach, it really only works if you remain in A mode - ie, letting the camera set your shutter speed for you.  In real terms, what that’s doing is letting the camera set exposure for the central area to average grey.  That’s a very average approach.

What the M10-D forces you to do is to set the EC to adjust that average (I prefer to leave the EC set at -2/3), and to make those fine, on the fly, adjustments in manual mode, using the meter readings in the viewfinder - find the meter recommendations, then stop back or up.  You’re doing the same thing as adjusting EC, but using either the aperture or shutter to make the adjustment.

In the case you refer to, you simply open the aperture and/or slow the shutter.  To my mind, this is a better approach as it makes me think more about shutter and aperture.  But it makes little difference.  If adjusting EC is the only way you like to do this, then the camera is not for you.  It’s more filmic, I guess to adjust the controls than to fool the meter, but it makes little difference in the end.

Edit - I meant to say that an alternative is to use the EVF and judge exposure using exposure simulation through the viewfinder - then you’re not using the meter at all.

Edited by IkarusJohn
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On 4/12/2019 at 3:26 AM, IkarusJohn said:

I always format my SD cards in my computer, using SDFormatter.  I don't play with the numbering as all my photos are sorted by date.

The Fotos connection can be a little ... erratic.  One thing I learned was to wait until the little green light on the back of the camera stopped flashing before I tried to connect from my phone.

Thanks, a little patience seems to help with the connection (wish they had it done over bluetooth). Also your recommendation  to put exposure compensation at -2/3 so far made a lot of sense to me in the conditions I am using it most. - Which light metering method do you typically use (would be nice if one could change it with the wheel)?

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9 hours ago, MRJohn said:

Thanks, a little patience seems to help with the connection (wish they had it done over bluetooth). Also your recommendation  to put exposure compensation at -2/3 so far made a lot of sense to me in the conditions I am using it most. - Which light metering method do you typically use (would be nice if one could change it with the wheel)?

As I primarily use the rangefinder, metering is only centre weighted.  With the EVF, I tend to use multi-field.

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I found myself shooting more and more with film again (MP and M6) the last few years, leaving the good old MP240 at home. The D bridges the gap for me - it is simple enough to remind me of the effortless, old school, analogue shooting without distraction and sophisticated enough to make my work stream a little faster and easier (no development and scanning). 90% of the handling is the same as on the analogue bodies and I guess if you cannot deal with the 10% change, you are getting to old to shoot anyway :)

Is it perfect - no. Is it close to perfect - for me it is, with some changes in the app that I am sure will be coming at some point. I do not play with much of the settings once shooting, but I would like some more options in the FOTOS app as currently exist. To be able to manually assign lenses and decide on your own file numbering are two. I love the fake advance lever as I no longer use a grip on the D - the 10% rule kicks in here to me too as I often forget about it during the first few shots :)

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