Forthcoming S-lens(es)...

[albertknappmd]

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I concur with Stuart in regards to the future of telephoto S lenses but the reason given is quite apposite. An APO teleconverter would be nice but we do have the advantage of using other MF telephotos.

As to the alliance... It is all in the details... not all alliances are the same and there may be a true wall between commercialization/sharing and research... Anyway, the alliance has been very fruitful for Leica so far.

Albert 🤫

 

[LocalHero1953]

The lack of new S lenses may not be because Leica sees no future in medium format, but rather that they are genuinely unsure about when to switch to mirrorless for medium format, as implied in the interview. Why invest in a new lens for a body that might be replaced by one with a shorter register distance in the not too distant future?

Edited February 24, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[peterv]

Indeed, and the part about heat dissipation is quite telling. For now we need the DSLR design and its nice to have full sensor 4K without a ventilator 🙂 Maybe in one or two generations there will be a mirrorless MF Leica with newly designed lenses that benefit from new production techniques, which is fine by me, keeps the money flowing and keeps Leica busy.

Edited February 24, 2019 by peterv

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The lack of new S lenses may not be because Leica sees no future in medium format, but rather that they are genuinely unsure about when to switch to mirrorless for medium format, as implied in the interview. Why invest in a new lens for a body that might be replaced by one with a shorter register distance in the not too distant future?

This speaks to the issue I raised earlier.  No new S lenses suggests that the S system in its current configuration (DSLR/ optical VF/mount) has reached a plateau. Optimists will characterize this as system maturity; others will say it has reached its end.... just a matter of time.  Nobody suggested the end of Leica MF.

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, I think Jeff has it here...pivoting into mirrorless MF would potentially mean a new lens mount, all new lenses and a lot of investment. Given the general trend in making MF cheaper, adding a lot of R&D money into a new system which will not be able to be sold for as much as the existing system...it seems like a hard bargain. Stephan Schultz said that they like the S as an alternative to the other MF options, that seems like it is their most likely position. Keep in mind that this is a company that kept making rangefinders decades after nearly every other company abandoned them. I can see them doing the same for the SLR...at least as long as they can sell some S bodies. I said it before, but I think the S system will lurch on for a few more years, but after the S3, my best guess is that it is done. I am sure that if Leica felt that they could recover their costs on redesigning the S lenses, they would make more...but within their own company they also have to deal with the M lenses, SL lenses, L lenses, Q, X, Cinema lines and so on. The S is probably the smallest market of them all. 

[peterv]

Yes, they’re ‘pulling a rangefinder’ on their SLR 🙂

Which is fine by me by the way, as long as they sell a few thousand S3’s per year, that’s good money in the bank for them, and rightly so. They put in a higher res sensor, keep the processor and the internal memory and squeeze out as much as possible and I love them for it. I started photography in 1978 with an SLR, a Canon AE1 🙂

And if I’m going to end with an S3, that’s okay too. For me the glass is at least half full because I chose the S system in 2013 when it was well underway and I knew what I was getting in to. Back in 2013, everybody was aware of the mirrorless trend and also the trend towards bigger sensors in smaller cameras. If I’m still around if/when Leica makes a mirrorless, I’ll gladly get an adapter and keep using my S lenses.

[ZHNL]

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On 2/21/2019 at 3:39 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I have not noticed a problem, per se, in the 70mm S lens, but it does have a characteristic that I occasionally run up against. At first I thought it was a fault in my lens, and I sent Leica samples. They wanted to test the lens, which they did, and they said it was fine. The behavior that I was seeing was that at apertures like f5.6 and below, I would see uneven sharpness at distance. Let's say I focused on a rock wall about 150 meters from the camera. The dead center of the wall would be tack sharp, but as you went to the field, it would get slightly softer and the area of sharpness would curve inward. So in the photo, the sharpest points would roughly be at 150m in the center, 100m in the edge and 70m in the corners. This would cause me some grief, as the wall was more or less equidistant at 150m, but the photo would manifest in being less sharp at the edges. 

At the time, I was photographing streetlights for a project and I was often in the distance, photographing them. They usually run in a straight line, and they are very high contrast lines. That is, they are a perfect storm for showing you optical problems. The prints in the series were 100x150cm, so these errors showed up. Lenses like the 120, 45, 35 did not show this issue, but the 70mm and 30-90 do. What I later learned is twofold -- all lenses have an inherently curved field if it is not otherwise corrected...the line of sharpness is not naturally flat unless the designers try to correct for it. It is very common to do so for macro lenses for example. Leica, rightly so, believes that sometimes it is better not to fully correct for this, as many photos benefit from a slightly curving field...it can help increase depth of field in the foreground and can render a more natural effect in a lot of compositions. Finally, the S actually accounts for this in the way that it focuses...the lens characteristics dictate the focusing algorithm's choice of distance. I would find that with certain lenses, the S would focus for maximum depth of field, rather than truly at the exact point indicated. The wide angles are especially prone to this...both my 35mm and 45mm rarely focus to true infinity...they stop just short to increase near field depth of field. This drives me nuts, but I was explained that it was done on purpose (as far as I recall anyway). 

In any case, I have found that the best choice for the 70mm is to stop down to f/8 or f/11. Below that it is still sharp, but its edge to edge performance is rather unpredictable. I agree that it is also not so spectacular wide open, at least for landscape work. I think all of the S lenses seem exceptional for portrait or fashion work, but unfortunately those advantages do not suit me quite so well. 

Hi Stuart, 

I try to look for images 70mm for you. Here are a few random examples. They are not the ones I like to represent but for information only. You can click to see full size through the link. I hope Flickr keep the fidelity of original file. Again, I feel the potential problem you see are from focus issue. I am surprised we don't see much complain about S's focusing, it is one of biggest flaw as far as I can tell for the system. Not how many point but how consistent and reliable it can nail focus especially for ones print big. 

This one is at f5.6

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

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Full size here, please ignore the minor hand hold shake and not enough DOF to cover everything but I don't see strong field curvature here. 

This one is at f4

  

Full size here

Another f4 sample

Full size here

Another f4 sample

Full size here

These are all handhold. I suggest download the images and view them in LR then use browser especially for 4K monitor. I always have scaling issue with my 4K Imac. The sharpening was not fine turned for each images though.  

Edited February 24, 2019 by ZHNL

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

...but within their own company they also have to deal with the M lenses, SL lenses, L lenses, Q, X, Cinema lines and so on. The S is probably the smallest market of them all. 

Cine lenses are probably the smallest market, but they charge a lot more for those.

I totally agree with the interview, as regards long lenses. You will get much more satisfaction renting or buying a long lens from Canon or Nikon, and even those will be a pain to use compared to APS-C or Micro-Four-Thirds. Getting optimal performance out of a super-telephoto medium format system involves heavy tripods and optimal atmospheric conditions. Is there really a market for that? A quick internet search tells me that there are some telescopes that cover medium format. I'm sure you could mount an S to one of those.

[ZHNL]

I echo long lens make no much sense. There are still far more important problems need to tackle before that for the system such as LCD resolution, tile screen will be very handful for low angle tripod shooting, AF fine tune to correct lens focus behavior etc... Unfortunately, none was implemented.  

[BernardC]

38 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

There are still far more important problems need to tackle before that for the system such as LCD resolution, tile screen will be very handful for low angle tripod shooting

I wonder if the new S will display live view through HDMI. There are quite a few cheap and light HDMI monitors on the market.

[ynp]

I agree with Jeff’s analysis. The S3 is most probably the last S camera  

I don’t care about the longer S lenses at all. The Hasselblad and Contax 645 lenses will cover the telephoto range. I have just added a GFX50r body with one lens and wait for a Contax 645 adapter. This plastic Fujica is not as enjoyable as the S2P is, but it has a decent sensor and it’s cheap. I am going to tolerate the Fuji EVF, nothing is close to the S viewfinder. 

[Jeff S]

I don’t know about the S3 being the last S; it might morph into something else (mirrorless) and still be considered the S family, or maybe it could be nursed along with some tweaks (S3P?) if Leica sees a viable market.  But it doesn’t seem like a core growth vehicle in its current configuration, at least not without some surprising new improvement that I don’t foresee. It might be interesting, though, to see an S Monochrom.

Jeff

[ZHNL]

I am personally not happy with the progress On S system. As mentioned, There are many things they can improve upon the system. When is last time they offer real benefit of firmware update? For example, in Aperture priority mode, the back wheel is for aperture change, the top wheel is useless in that mode, why not implement an option as quick exposure compensation? Little thing like these will show commentment and care to their customers, not recycle part to squeez more money on dieing system. For exposure compensation we still have to long push button and turn. It is very unfriendly for quick shooting condition change. 

Given DSLR limitation, a AF fine tune is a must for most system given image path and focus path are separate, PDAF require absolutely matching accuracy or user changeable.  Canon and Nikon are not fool offer this feature 10 years ago. Especially for future 64M sensor S, not all people shoot fashion at f11 with good light control. 

Nowdays, LCD on the back of D850/Z7 or any Sony FF camera or future Panasonic are all up to 2.1M with good color and sharpness even under full sun. What is difficult of implement that? How about our flagship Leica in 2019? Are S users never use their cameras under sun or need review sharpness and color during shooting? Or do everybody use HDMI cable with after maket screen and holder on their camera during field trip? Seems they are just trying to recycle their unsold S007 parts to me.

All these requiremwnt seems fairly basic in 2019 but it seems so luxury for S users.

Edited February 25, 2019 by ZHNL

[xiaubauu2009]

21 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Didn't sound too rosy for us here in S land... I find it hard to believe that the reason they will not sell longer lenses is because they are concerned that we cannot hold them steadily enough...it seems much more likely that they would be very expensive to build to the standard they require, and they don't think they would sell enough to get back the investment...they are probably right. That's why they should give up an APO teleconverter like we had with the R system! 

 I am also very surprised to hear that Leica was surprised by the S1R...I would assumed their alliance meant that they more or less knew what kinds of cameras each other were going to release. If this is not the case, Leica might have stepped a bit on a landmine.

Telephoto lens is not as hard to built as Wide angle with high resolution and big image circle.... I will say Tilt shift lens will be harder compare to a telephoto. Never the less, I think the future is Mirrorless, higher accuracy and better synergy with lens. Particularly if you use it with AF in mind.

[helged]

9 hours ago, BernardC said:

I wonder if the new S will display live view through HDMI. There are quite a few cheap and light HDMI monitors on the market.

No problem, even external EVFs can be used with S-bodies with live view. For critical focus and long lenses, I would like to have access to an EVF a la that used for the M-system (since M240), but I can't recall I have seen info/rumours about this for the current S-system.

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by helged

[ynp]

1 hour ago, helged said:

No problem, even external EVFs can be used with S-bodies with live view. For critical focus and long lenses, I would like to have access to an EVF a la that used for the M-system (since M240), but I can't recall I have seen info/rumours about this for the current S-system.

I don’t know how reliable is my source, but he/she said that the S3 design was finalized long ago and the camera is being tested without a terminal for an EVF. 

[helged]

35 minutes ago, ynp said:

I don’t know how reliable is my source, but he/she said that the S3 design was finalized long ago and the camera is being tested without a terminal for an EVF. 

On the S007, you can use the HDMI type C contact on the body to pass the live view signal to an external monitor/EVF. Based on the released product images, the S3 has the same contacts as the S007, so HDM-C should also work for the S3. Adding an external monitor/EVF to the body adds bulk and weight and clearly reduces portability, but it can be used for (quasi-)static and/or studio photography.

So yes, the M-type of EVF requires dedicated contacts located onto or just under the hot shoe, but the S007 (and presumably S3) could use the HDMI-C contact. Not that 'elegant' and weather-'proof' as the M-solution, but doable and workable for some shooting situations at least.

Edited February 25, 2019 by helged

[xiaubauu2009]

12 hours ago, ZHNL said:

Hi Stuart, 

I try to look for images 70mm for you. Here are a few random examples. They are not the ones I like to represent but for information only. You can click to see full size through the link. I hope Flickr keep the fidelity of original file. Again, I feel the potential problem you see are from focus issue. I am surprised we don't see much complain about S's focusing, it is one of biggest flaw as far as I can tell for the system. Not how many point but how consistent and reliable it can nail focus especially for ones print big. 

This one is at f5.6

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Full size here, please ignore the minor hand hold shake and not enough DOF to cover everything but I don't see strong field curvature here. 

This one is at f4

  

Full size here

Another f4 sample

Full size here

Another f4 sample

Full size here

These are all handhold. I suggest download the images and view them in LR then use browser especially for 4K monitor. I always have scaling issue with my 4K Imac. The sharpening was not fine turned for each images though.  

I don't know, maybe it's your hand shake, or maybe it's just the lens performance. My 70mm seems to have had better result than yours, but then again, I never really try landscape photography with the 70mm.

[ynp]

48 minutes ago, helged said:

On the S007, you can use the HDMI type C contact on the body to pass the live view signal to an external monitor/EVF. Based on the released product images, the S3 has the same contacts as the S007, so HDM-C should also work for the S3. Adding an external monitor/EVF to the body adds bulk and weight and clearly reduces portability, but it can be used for (quasi-)static and/or studio photography.

So yes, the M-type of EVF requires dedicated contacts located onto or just under the hot shoe, but the S007 (and presumably S3) could use the HDMI-C contact. Not that 'elegant' and weather-'proof' as the M-solution, but doable and workable for some shooting situations at least.

Can I move the focus point and AF on the external monitor? Can I still use the joystick?

Sorry for my questions, I still have the S2P and have no access to a SOO7. 

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[helged]

3 minutes ago, ynp said:

Can I move the focus point and AF on the external monitor? Can I still use the joystick?

Sorry for my questions, I still have the S2P and have no access to a SOO7. 

An external monitor/EVF on the S007 - connected via the body's HDMI-C contact - mirrors the body's rear screen in live view.  So yes, you can move the focus point, use the AF with the joystick, use focus magnification for critical focus, look at the histogram/examine high light clipping/deep shadows, examining your images, etc. See David Farkas excellent 'guided tour' here: https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/02/live-view-and-playback-operation-walkthrough-on-the-leica-s-typ-007/.