Forthcoming S-lens(es)...

[peterv]

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Maybe an image helps, imagine the purple area, which is 24x36, expand 3mm up and 3mm down and 4,5mm left and 4,5 mm right. Then you have a 30x45 mm sensor. Now I think that would fit, not much space left, but it seems to me it could be squeezed in there.

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[Agent M10]

19 minutes ago, peterv said:

I’m just thinking out loud about the possibilities of shoving a 30x45 mm sensor in a camera with an L Mount. 

What would be the benefit? You have S lenses which are designed exclusively for and work fabulously with the S mount. Why try to shove a different sized sensor into a full-frame camera when the SL lenses are state of the art? 

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[peterv]

It’s just academic, the discussion was about an interview with some high level people from Leica and that they said the L mount was designed for a full frame, and I think they are right of course. I just wanted to say that I would think that as a company they would like to keep their options open and maybe it’s not a coincidence that the 30×45 sensor would seem to fit.

Enough, I’m of to bed, so long everybody!

Edited February 25, 2019 by peterv
Typo

[xiaubauu2009]

45x30 will not fit the L mount, or at least not properly. The E mount can barely service a FF sensor. 

If leica want to do a proper mirrorless MF, they should keep the S mount but create a variant of lens with 'SB (Short Barrel)' code and just use an adaptor to increase the flange to take normal S lens. That way, no need to invest in a new mount system and just focus on developing lens. You get 2 camera eco-system and benefits. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by xiaubauu2009

[xiaubauu2009]

5 hours ago, peterv said:

Maybe an image helps, imagine the purple area, which is 24x36, expand 3mm up and 3mm down and 4,5mm left and 4,5 mm right. Then you have a 30x45 mm sensor. Now I think that would fit, not much space left, but it seems to me it could be squeezed in there.

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It won't fit properly, unless some corner is cut...

[helged]

1 hour ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

It won't fit properly, unless some corner is cut...

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Correct if the light rays from the lens' rear element hits the sensor perpendicularly. But the diameter of the rear element of the S-lenses is quite small, so the rays could cover the corner of the L-mount sensor still.

Edited February 26, 2019 by helged

[ZHNL]

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1 hour ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

It won't fit properly, unless some corner is cut...

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This is really not a good illustration that Mount can't handle the sensor. We don't need sensor drop into the mount  

However, judge from Canon, Nikon both choose 55mm as their mount size with 20mm and 16mm flange distance for their 35mm system. and rumors have been said Sony's E mount was an afterthought for FF and it was originally developed for APS-C. and Also both Hasselblad and Fuji choose much larger mount with short flange distance, I think L mount is a stretch for S sensor.  

As helged mentioned that most S mount lenses don't have big element at back, L mount might be able to fit S sensor for certain type of Lens design. Still, I feel it is not designed for 30x45. Especially considering after remove electronic pin, glass element housing,  there are not much real estate left for lens element to cover sensor as big as S.  IMHO of course. 

[xiaubauu2009]

16 minutes ago, helged said:

Correct if the light rays from the lens' rear element hits the sensor perpendicularly. But the diameter of the rear element of the S-lenses is quite small, so the rays could cover the corner of the L-mount sensor still.

Yes, a bit like the E-Mount, but it has limitations...

[xiaubauu2009]

12 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

This is really not a good illustration that Mount can't handle the sensor. We don't need sensor drop into the mount  

However, judge from Canon, Nikon both choose 55mm as their mount size with 20mm and 16mm flange distance for their 35mm system. and rumors have been said Sony's E mount was an afterthought for FF and it was originally developed for APS-C. and Also both Hasselblad and Fuji choose much larger mount with short flange distance, I think L mount is a stretch for S sensor.  

As helged mentioned that most S mount lenses don't have big element at back, L mount might be able to fit S sensor for certain type of Lens design. Still, I feel it is not designed for 30x45. Especially considering after remove electronic pin, glass element housing,  there are not much real estate left for lens element to cover sensor as big as S.  IMHO of course. 

I think whether or not if it's mirrorless is not that important. In fact, having OVF is a good thing, it's a niche and a very very good niche. Big juicy OVF is rare now. But like you have pointed out. They really really should implement the AF micro adjustor into the body firmware to allow for individual adjustment of lens to AF Module behavior. I can see this as a good start to 'Kaizen' the system (as Fujifilm will put it)

[Stuart Richardson]

Leica has said in the past that AF micro adjustment was not needed because every S lens and body is tested and profiled at the factory with its exact characteristics and they communicate with each other to tell the camera how to focus. So theoretically, there should be no need for AF micro adjustments...if there are, they want you to return the lens to the factory. 

I realize that this is not always the case, but this is why they did not include that feature in the camera...

[xiaubauu2009]

30 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Leica has said in the past that AF micro adjustment was not needed because every S lens and body is tested and profiled at the factory with its exact characteristics and they communicate with each other to tell the camera how to focus. So theoretically, there should be no need for AF micro adjustments...if there are, they want you to return the lens to the factory. 

 I realize that this is not always the case, but this is why they did not include that feature in the camera...

Leica want you to hand over your lens for a 2 weeks (if you are lucky) turn around adjustment for something you can do yourself in 15mins...... they shot themselves in their foot by trying to be overly 'professional' for something that can be implemented by the end user...

I know about that chip thingy in the leica S lens for good synergy... and I was very impressed by that claim until I actually use it for awhile to find that the AF is still sometimes unreliable... even with a split screen focusing. And compare to a Alpa tech cam where they require you to do your own shimming of the digital back adaptor to accuracy of 0.01mm that I realize how inaccurate leica S could be. I hope S3 can start to look at this as something to improve upon. or they can fix all these with a on sensor PDAF/even CDAF system... to negate all the tolerance...

For me, getting into a system is about what it can give you. As I remember S system was announced, at least for me, it is about being the best IQ, Durability, High tech, incredible optics, accuracy... I think they should look at the essence of what make S great and work on those... just my 2 cents...

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by xiaubauu2009

[Stuart Richardson]

I am with you, but I think that Leica assumes they will do it better than you will. I am sure that some users can do it very well, but I think most do not want to have to bother with it (I know I do not). But I totally agree with you about sending it to them...that is far worse. I have not felt the need to do this with my lenses, and I have overall been very pleased with the AF accuracy of the lenses I use most (70mm and 120) but I have also subconsciously given myself workarounds in certain situations regarding the wider lenses like the 35mm and 45mm. It does seem a bit frustrating that we are still dealing with focus accuracy in 2019, but I do not have enough experience with other DSLR's to know if they are really better, or just faster...I know that my D3 was pretty good, but I still had to adjust trickier lenses like the 135mm f2 DC, even though it was only 12mp. 

[ZHNL]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Leica has said in the past that AF micro adjustment was not needed because every S lens and body is tested and profiled at the factory with its exact characteristics and they communicate with each other to tell the camera how to focus. So theoretically, there should be no need for AF micro adjustments...if there are, they want you to return the lens to the factory. 

I realize that this is not always the case, but this is why they did not include that feature in the camera...

I know I have seen that. but reality say otherwise. We have seen many reports on S AF here in this forum. I still feel what you see with 70mm performance might associate AF problem.  

Leica just lose its credit to me. I no longer trust them for anything they say. I can PM you some detail about AF if you want to know.  In that sense, I prefer Japanese company that do more say less, their products just works. 

BTW, Modern SLR are fine, especially for the case I described with well defined non-moving target . MILC with CDAF will have more consistent focus. For example Z7 will always have optimized focus result compare to D850 because of on sensor CDAF. However, the difference between the two are minor. D850 won't be able to nail AF consistently down to single or a few pixel level but results are totally usable and certainly not hundreds pixel off or totally OOF like S did. Simply no comparison in this regards. 

[hoppyman]

Every time you power on an S camera you will hear the lens communicate with the body to match their adjustment state.electronically. That is, it self calibrates. It is nothing like mechanical adjustments in the M system and nothing like a body AF offset you might set in firmware with a Nikon DSLR for example which might have larger tolerances to align. 

i don’t think that an option for the user to make an offset adjustment by menu would be a fix for single point central AF AFc limitations for example. 

As far as I can read, the S3 will work the same and it doesn’t appear that any radical system redesign for EVF, mirrorless is planned. 

Within Leica systems you might find the SL2 whenever we see it might do more that you want and that is where their  best performance new design lenses are appearing too of course 

Edited February 26, 2019 by hoppyman

[xiaubauu2009]

5 hours ago, hoppyman said:

Every time you power on an S camera you will hear the lens communicate with the body to match their adjustment state.electronically. That is, it self calibrates. It is nothing like mechanical adjustments in the M system and nothing like a body AF offset you might set in firmware with a Nikon DSLR for example which might have larger tolerances to align. 

 i don’t think that an option for the user to make an offset adjustment by menu would be a fix for single point central AF AFc limitations for example. 

 As far as I can read, the S3 will work the same and it doesn’t appear that any radical system redesign for EVF, mirrorless is planned. 

Within Leica systems you might find the SL2 whenever we see it might do more that you want and that is where their  best performance new design lenses are appearing too of course 

Yes, that's what I assume that few rotation movement when you first power up was for. 

[Photon42]

14 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I know I have seen that. but reality say otherwise. We have seen many reports on S AF here in this forum. I still feel what you see with 70mm performance might associate AF problem.  

Leica just lose its credit to me. I no longer trust them for anything they say. I can PM you some detail about AF if you want to know.  In that sense, I prefer Japanese company that do more say less, their products just works. 

BTW, Modern SLR are fine, especially for the case I described with well defined non-moving target . MILC with CDAF will have more consistent focus. For example Z7 will always have optimized focus result compare to D850 because of on sensor CDAF. However, the difference between the two are minor. D850 won't be able to nail AF consistently down to single or a few pixel level but results are totally usable and certainly not hundreds pixel off or totally OOF like S did. Simply no comparison in this regards. 

Your statement to not trust Leica company anymore on anything they say, sounds a bit too bitter for my ears. It is your bitterness, not mine. I am not married to any camera company and I suspect you are not, either. Leica is free to follow their economic and non economic goals and specifically are free to chose and change the way to reach them.

I agree Leica sometimes almost over perfection a certain feature and they do have a tendency to cut out user influence to image quality, where it may potentially degrade image quality in their eyes (LENR, user side lens calibration, Contax lenses not working with TL-Adapter S, close focus, extension rings ....). That is how they are. And that different character along with exceptional image quality is normally what seems to attract people. They are s camera manufacturer in the original meaning, much more than anything else and most if not all other camera companies.

For the record: I had no issues getting my lenses with AF issues repaired at no cost. I did not buy any of these new myself. I also had a number of issues with new cameras from Leica out of the box. Leica dealt with this in a reasonably professional way for a consumer like I am.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Photon42

[Stuart Richardson]

I am with Photon42 here. I give Leica a hard time because I think they can handle it. They are truly proud and dedicated to their products. I value the fact that I can pick up the phone and talk to them directly about it...to the same people over years, and to get a response on an issue even if it is not the response I wanted. I still have not had that kind of experience from most other companies. More often than not, when I have returned things to them, they have been generous with their warranty interpretations and have done more than required. Leica can be stubborn, but they listen. 

If by some chance you are able to visit the factory, I recommend doing so. I went once with my 30-90mm lens, which needed repair. The staff were very kind to me, and it was great to see the pride they put in. One thing I was particularly happy to see was that there were large photographs of the factory in Portugal on display in the dining area. I thought it was great that they put their other factory on display, rather than try to hide behind some exclusive "Made in Germany" label.  While of course they did not roll out the red carpet like they would if I were Seal or Lenny Kravitz, haha, they did meet me, listen to my concerns, and work to address them as well as they could. The only other company I have ever had this experience with was Audio Technica, after randomly coming upon their headquarters in Tokyo. I walked in to ask them if they had a showroom like Sony, and they replied they did not, but they asked me to wait and they brought me tea and proceeded to bring their finest headphones and amplifiers down into the lobby for me to listen to. It was the most surreal and astounding demonstration of hospitality that I remember, and to this day I associate their company with customer focus and quality. By comparison, the total indifference I have received from Hasselblad in regards to service and communication has meant that I will never buy another of their products, no matter how much I might appreciate them...customer service and corporate attitude go a long way, and frankly I would rather have products from a company that will listen to my concerns, even if they do not always please me with all of their decisions, rather than with a company that does not even register that I exist. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[ynp]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If by some chance you are able to visit the factory, I recommend doing so. I went once with my 30-90mm lens, which needed repair. The staff were very kind to me, and it was great to see the pride they put in. One thing I was particularly happy to see was that there were large photographs of the factory in Portugal on display in the dining area. I thought it was great that they put their other factory on display, rather than try to hide behind some exclusive "Made in Germany" label. 

Stuart, thank you for your information and positive mood of your post.  I’m guilty of expressing too much of negativity here on this board and I apologize.

Do you think if I bring my four S lenses to the factory, would it be possible for Leica  to check and fix them during a couple of days? How can I arrange the visit? I plan to be in Germany in April and want to visit the headquarters.  Thanks. 

Yevgeny

[Stuart Richardson]

Hi Yevgeny, 

I would just reach out to customer service for the S system and ask if it is possible. I did not get a special tour or anything, but the factory has a small museum/gallery, an area where you can peek in on the factory floor (though it is mostly the QC department I think), and there is a nice Leica store there. When I went there some of the customer service staff came and met me and spoke with me about the issues, and were generous with their time even though of course they could not spend so much time with me because they also had to work. I guess that they do their best to provide for customers this way, but they really cannot guarantee anything, as they have obligations to their other customers as well. I visited in late 2014, but I am not sure if things have changed. I think they have their own hotel now...

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[ZHNL]

Your statement to not trust Leica company anymore on anything they say, sounds a bit too bitter for my ears. It is your bitterness, not mine. I am not married to any camera company and I suspect you are not, either. Leica is free to follow their economic and non economic goals and specifically are free to chose and change the way to reach them.

That is fine since it is mostly subjective anyway. I don’t expect you or any other satisfied S users agree with me.

I no longer trust Leica is because of my experience using their product and getting their service. I average took about 3000~5000 images with S each year since I got into the system 5 years ago. I bring them all over the world and NPs in US. If saying there is no emotional satisfaction with system, that will be lie. Actually, like many others, many of those service are free and I get loaner more than half of the times.

However, the reliability and service stories are goanna take me hours if not days to write. I don’t want be that guy to tell The Emperor's New Clothes.

I agree Leica sometimes almost over perfection a certain feature and they do have a tendency to cut out user influence to image quality, where it may potentially degrade image quality in their eyes (LENR, user side lens calibration, Contax lenses not working with TL-Adapter S, close focus, extension rings ....). That is how they are. And that different character along with exceptional image quality is normally what seems to attract people. They are s camera manufacturer in the original meaning, much more than anything else and most if not all other camera companies.

I really want to hear your opinion which feature they are perfect that have a tendency to cut out user influence?

 If you talk about LENR, that is not. Have you shoot S with 2min exposure? I did and I can tell you even with LENR enabled, the long exposure IQ of S006/S007 are way behind modern Nikon or Sony without any LENR enabled. They are almost unusable for color images if your standard is any FF camera introduced past 5 years or so. Mandatory LENR is not because they perfect the performance but simply because thermal noise of their sensor during exposure is totally unacceptable.

Now, can you tell me at what degree, AF fine tune will affect performance?

I of course buy that every single lens was calibrated in factory in sync with body at the time I read it and buy into the system 5 years ago. However, repeated focus error in field and multiple trips for service tell me otherwise. Yes, they said the same thing on M as well, but you often hear brand new out of box M glasses require adjust to get correct focus.  

TBH, I don’t know what S is doing during initial power up. If that is calibration with lens cap on, I’d like to know some technical detail. What if internal element shift a little front or back after factory? This will take them back?

I am not an expert for AF system but I know some fundamental stuff. PDAF(phase detect auto focus) is mostly open loop system,(means it won’t correct itself based on feedback) the internal AF engine detect phase error, instruct lens to front or back adjust xx step based on phase error and preloaded algorithm on each lens design.(not individual lens, read) That is it. To ensure it work correctly, the first requirement is AF path and image path are must be exact the same. The AF module is at vertical path underneath the body. And it requires mirror that altered the image signal also have critical position and angle. Any error either from factory or long term use will show up no matter is from Body or Lens, especially for high resolution high performance system.

Then, the lenses elements have to have exact same distance movement for each step instructed to move. That is why all DSLRs introduced in past 10 years offer this feature, even for 12M sensor system.

This is not talk but science, and if I don’t have focus error or I didn’t read story about S focus error I trust all what Leica told me.

For the record: I had no issues getting my lenses with AF issues repaired at no cost. I did not buy any of these new myself. I also had a number of issues with new cameras from Leica out of the box. Leica dealt with this in a reasonably professional way for a consumer like I am.

Sure! See, you also have the AF issues (I assume you got free replacement for motor) There are still people not lucky as you that get free motor repaired or sensor replacement. I wonder how many S users here don’t have any issues? What is failure percentage for a system that designed for pro.  Which pro can afford suddenly lose AF or even lose control the aperture during a paid shooting or years planned trip to exotic location? How many can afford to have backup S glasses? And How many users can afford time and expense directly go to factory have a cup of coffee and wait for service to be done?

For AF motor, the easiest and also more painful solution (for Leica) is recall and be done with it. 

I am an engineer for living. Marketing talk can’t replace data. Am I bitter? I guess so but is it reality just that hush? I have my highest sympathy for those pros enter the system then find out that unreliable the S system is on multiple levels.

I think it is wise to stop here but only to answer your quote to clarify a few things and of course due to respect.

Edited February 27, 2019 by ZHNL