Forthcoming S-lens(es)...

[xiaubauu2009]

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The momentum and excitement of the S camera seems to stop abruptly since the AF motor fiasco and I hope they do gives something interesting.

Edited February 20, 2019 by xiaubauu2009

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[tom0511]

In England they also asked the people what to do ...

But overall I agree with you that Leica can work on their communication philosohpy.

Off today the S-System has the most complete lens line up of all "small" medium format options, and while Fuji and Hassy xc lenses are certainly very good, I believe the S-lenses are very good, and wide open probably even better than most of their counterparts. 

 

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

The momentum and excitement of the S camera seems to stop abruptly since the AF motor fiasco and I hope they do gives something interesting.

Is that the momentum in the forums, or in the real world? You have to remember that people on forums are very impatient. Lord knows what they would have done back in the day, when Hasselblad sold the same camera for almost 50 years! Now a system is considered "dead" if there hasn't been a press release in a few weeks...

The momentum of the S was very low for the first few years. It only seemed to build when the S-006 came out. It is low right now, but we are weeks away from a new model. Things should pick-up when deliveries start.

Obviously, service issues have not helped, especially in the US. Leica could have saved themselves a lot of grief with better logistics.

[albertknappmd]

23 hours ago, ynp said:

Jeff, it's his job to express confidence and sell the product. On the other hand, while I have never met David Farkas or his people, he sounds like a very decent and knowledgeable person and I am sure that he had no intention to mislead the Leica-S photographers. Obviously, he just shared the info he got at Leica in 2011. 

Yevgeny

I know David and can categorically state that he is knowledgeable, honest and totally trustworthy...

One of the brighter lights in the Leica firmament!

Albert 😏

[helged]

11 minutes ago, albertknappmd said:

I know David and can categorically state that he is knowledgeable, honest and totally trustworthy...

One of the brighter lights in the Leica firmament!

Albert 😏

+1!

[alan.y]

52 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Is that the momentum in the forums, or in the real world? You have to remember that people on forums are very impatient. Lord knows what they would have done back in the day, when Hasselblad sold the same camera for almost 50 years! Now a system is considered "dead" if there hasn't been a press release in a few weeks...

The momentum of the S was very low for the first few years. It only seemed to build when the S-006 came out. It is low right now, but we are weeks away from a new model. Things should pick-up when deliveries start.

Obviously, service issues have not helped, especially in the US. Leica could have saved themselves a lot of grief with better logistics.

Leica could generate excitement and (re)inspire confidence if they just had somebody participate in forums (here and Fred Miranda, etc.) occasionally, like they used to. They don't seem to exploit the nimbleness of a small company.

 

[Jeff S]

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49 minutes ago, albertknappmd said:

I know David and can categorically state that he is knowledgeable, honest and totally trustworthy...

 

Nobody here has suggested otherwise. I said much the same above, and specifically quoted him because of his stature in the business and the Leica community, and to illustrate how much optimism surrounding the S system has subsided here in the forum since those days when David posted enthusiastically in 2011. Leica Miami and David have always served me well.  That’s besides the point I raised about where we were in 2011 regarding expected new lenses... by many of us, David included.

Perhaps we’ll see renewed interest and enthusiasm with the S3, but the industry and the competitive environment have changed.  New or improved native lenses would merely indicate to me that Leica is committed to the S in its current DSLR configuration.  That’s all I meant.

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Is that the momentum in the forums, or in the real world? You have to remember that people on forums are very impatient. Lord knows what they would have done back in the day, when Hasselblad sold the same camera for almost 50 years! Now a system is considered "dead" if there hasn't been a press release in a few weeks...

 

The thing with the Hasselblad is that the camera might not have changed much over 50 years, but the film certainly did. My hope for the S is basically the same. I do not want them to change the camera...it is superb. I would like them to change the sensor to reflect the best available technology...but Leica will do what they will do. 

 

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, alan.y said:

Leica could generate excitement and (re)inspire confidence if they just had somebody participate in forums (here and Fred Miranda, etc.) occasionally, like they used to. They don't seem to exploit the nimbleness of a small company.

 

Like many small, specialist companies, Leica keeps its product development close to its chest.  It likes its decisions to be carefully considered and it products carefully and fully developed.  It isn’t a democracy. 

[alan.y]

28 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Like many small, specialist companies, Leica keeps its product development close to its chest.  It likes its decisions to be carefully considered and it products carefully and fully developed.  It isn’t a democracy. 

I think even an occasional pleasantry like "we're aware your concerns" would help. There's a lot of space between minimum engagement and turning your small company into a democracy, which nobody is suggesting.

Edited February 20, 2019 by alan.y

[IkarusJohn]

Well, look at the size of this forum and the number of posts.  Then look at the number and variety of suggestions for the next M or SL or other camera iteration (and the number of half-baked ideas), then look at the complaints about service and repairs.  It would be a full time job for as many Leica employees as we have moderators to keep on top of the comments.

Conversely, consider Leica quietly getting on with what they do.  Telling us what they have when it’s ready and dealing with problems when they arise (sometimes not that well).

It’s a flood gates issue.

[ZHNL]

I don’t know you guys, but Leica S to me is pretty much a manual focused body. I simply can’t rely on its AF. I have handled maybe 4 or 5 S bodies plus lots of S glasses. They all performed about the same. Don’t tell me I don’t know how to select AF target, the problem is: even with same well defined target, it could give you different results, each slightly differ, this will kill lens and sensor potential to differentiate it from low end stuff.

S007 did one thing better compare to S006 is it has on sensor CDAF. So as long as you don’t require speed operation, you are fine. 

I am OK with one single AF point but please make it usable and reliable at least. Otherwise, I can foresee this will be a even bigger problem for 64M sensor. 

As for Leica’s momentum, it was lost at time they no longer stand behind their design fault on sensor corision and AF motor problems as well as stay with 37M another round. S’s reliability horror story keep hang around on internet. Everything go downhill from there. 

Who is really happy with S now truely as S owners? I bet answer is very different compare now to 3 years ago. 

Don't simply blame S’s owners’ patenice, it is not our fault. I’d say S owners are the most patient group either volunteered or forced.  

[alan.y]

13 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Well, look at the size of this forum and the number of posts.  Then look at the number and variety of suggestions for the next M or SL or other camera iteration (and the number of half-baked ideas), then look at the complaints about service and repairs.  It would be a full time job for as many Leica employees as we have moderators to keep on top of the comments.

Conversely, consider Leica quietly getting on with what they do.  Telling us what they have when it’s ready and dealing with problems when they arise (sometimes not that well).

It’s a flood gates issue.

I was thinking of Adorama's full-time damage control expert / good cop "Helen Oster" (who may or may not be a real-life person). She goes around all the forums shutting down negative stories about Adorama, and it certainly seems to help. I don't know that Leica needs a Helen Oster. Maybe Leica did the cost/benefit analysis and decided even minimal engagement would lead to an unmanageable flow of requests. But maybe having an online ambassador, even on a full-time basis, would restore confidence and enthusiasm.

I mean, think about someone interested in getting into the S system. They google "Leica S forum" and come here--the most "active" forum dedicated to the S. They read the recent posts. 1/3 are about how often the S breaks. 1/3 are about the GFX's advantages. The last 1/3 are the same idle chatter like this one--posts about what we post, because we're so bored and have nothing to else talk about.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by alan.y

[hoppyman]

Hi Helged. I would like to comment on just part of your post.

What do you consider are the deficiencies of the Summarit S 70? I haven’t noticed any image quality limits with mine. Well it has broken twice,. The system durability,  gives me concern but not the image quality.

We know from statements by Peter Karbe that the lenses could  out- resolve the next sensor generation from the start. I guess we will see whenever the S3 is available. As you say, the latest L mount designs (the Summicrons) look like they are and will be spectacular. Perhaps at some point the current S lenses might get redesigns?

[helged]

2 hours ago, hoppyman said:

Hi Helged. I would like to comment on just part of your post.

What do you consider are the deficiencies of the Summarit S 70? I haven’t noticed any image quality limits with mine. Well it has broken twice,. The system durability,  gives me concern but not the image quality.

We know from statements by Peter Karbe that the lenses could  out- resolve the next sensor generation from the start. I guess we will see whenever the S3 is available. As you say, the latest L mount designs (the Summicrons) look like they are and will be spectacular. Perhaps at some point the current S lenses might get redesigns?

Thanks and yes - I should/could have been more specific... Firstly, I do like the overall rendering the the S-lenses; I have the 24, 35, 45, 70, 120mm. Actually, I prefer the look/print of the S006-files above any of the FF systems I have experience with (presently Leica SL and Nikon D850/D5).

So to your question - not addressing S70 in particular - but the S-lenses I have experience with in general terms: Firstly I would say that the edge/corner sharpness of the S-lenses, wide-ish open, is generally not on par with e.g. the SL lenses. Secondly, the outer 10-20 percent or so of the image may show coma or related aberration deficiencies wide-ish open. This is e.g. seen in pin-point star and Milky Way astro photography (here, for comparison, the SL 24-90mm @24mm is among the best lenses I have used/tested, see the thread below). Thirdly, there is a tendency for some colour aberration/fringing when shooting towards high-lights. This is hardly seen in the SL primes. And fourthly, the S-lenses are, generally, more prone to flare than the SL lenses. The recent SL 16-35mm show, in particular, hardly any flaring at all - which is simply fantastic for a WA zoom, leaving most of the WA FF primes behind. Very impressive!

Peter Karbe is - as you mention - quite explicit on the image quality of the SL lenses, see e.g. https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/09/setting-a-new-standard-with-leica-sl-lenses-a-discussion-with-peter-karbe-at-photokina-2016/, http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2018/10/apo-summicron-sl-35mm-f2-asph-simply.html and https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1007984412867297281. Again, this doesn't mean that the S-lenses are not excellent, but that the SL primes define a new standard. I therefore think that the combination of the newest optical and in-camera software correction technologies could lift several of the S-lenses to an even higher level. It will not come for free, and the lenses will not be small. But it should be possible. That's all. And I have absolutely no doubts that the existing S-lenses will (out)resolve the upcoming 64 mp S3-sensor.

Comparing the two sensor sizes are not fair in the sense that it is likely 'easier' to make optically 'perfect' lenses for FF compared to larger sensors - but that's another story. And I clearly see that some of the above points - like the corner/edge performance wide-ish open - may not be the most central quality-criteria for most S-shooters, nor for Leica.

To avoid any misunderstandings  - the above are nothing but my personal views/experiences, coming from an enthusiast, amateur photographer and not from a professional shooter - so don't put more into it than that...

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by helged

[ZHNL]

2 hours ago, helged said:

Thanks and yes - I should/could have been more specific... Firstly, I do like the overall rendering the the S-lenses; I have the 24, 35, 45, 70, 120mm. Actually, I prefer the look/print of the S006-files above any of the FF systems I have experience with (presently Leica SL and Nikon D850/D5).

So to your question - not addressing S70 in particular - but the S-lenses I have experience with in general terms: Firstly I would say that the edge/corner sharpness of the S-lenses, wide-ish open, is generally not on par with e.g. the SL lenses. Secondly, the outer 10-20 percent or so of the image may show coma or related aberration deficiencies wide-ish open. This is e.g. seen in pin-point star and Milky Way astro photography (here, for comparison, the SL 24-90mm @24mm is among the best lenses I have used/tested, see the thread below). Thirdly, there is a tendency for some colour aberration/fringing when shooting towards high-lights. This is hardly seen in the SL primes. And fourthly, the S-lenses are, generally, more prone to flare than the SL lenses. The recent SL 16-35mm show, in particular, hardly any flaring at all - which is simply fantastic for a WA zoom, leaving most of the WA FF primes behind. Very impressive!

Peter Karbe is - as you mention - quite explicit on the image quality of the SL lenses, see e.g. https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/09/setting-a-new-standard-with-leica-sl-lenses-a-discussion-with-peter-karbe-at-photokina-2016/, http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2018/10/apo-summicron-sl-35mm-f2-asph-simply.html and https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1007984412867297281. Again, this doesn't mean that the S-lenses are not excellent, but that the SL primes define a new standard. I therefore think that the combination of the newest optical and in-camera software correction technologies could lift several of the S-lenses to an even higher level. It will not come for free, and the lenses will not be small. But it should be possible. That's all. And I have absolutely no doubts that the existing S-lenses will (out)resolve the upcoming 64 mp S3-sensor.

Comparing the two sensor sizes are not fair in the sense that it is likely 'easier' to make optically 'perfect' lenses for FF compared to larger sensors - but that's another story. And I clearly see that some of the above points - like the corner/edge performance wide-ish open - may not be the most central quality-criteria for most S-shooters, nor for Leica.

To avoid any misunderstandings  - the above are nothing but my personal views/experiences, coming from an enthusiast, amateur photographer and not from a professional shooter - so don't put more into it than that...

 

I agree with you about fringe color, especially LoCA during back light which is almost impossible to correct at software level. I personally never test coma on S given its poor low light performance (forced NR). 

Sharpness wise, I don't have complain on 70mm as others have. after f5.6, I don't see difference between 35/70 or 120 on 37M sensor and I am pretty careful and picky. 

WO Render wise, S glass as a set are really hard to beat. Simply incredible! but will client see it? or will you see it after f8, especially at 37M? I doubt it highly. If it can't give perceivable IQ advantage, the value of system become a question mark, that is what haunting the system most along with poor reliability and service.    

Edited February 21, 2019 by ZHNL

[hoppyman]

Very interesting thanks Helged. We shoot very different things and in different ways too I guess. I just have two S lenses, being the 70 and the APO Macro 120. I use them almost entirely in studio environment and stopped down. Anecdotally I think that 120 is the best performing lens I have ever had. For my SL I have the 24-90 only. Those get used in studio primarily too. 
I shall take the challenge and see what I can do about creating some flare with them now 😉 I found a handful in older shoots where the result (both lenses )ended up being quite beautiful in portraiture.

Edited February 21, 2019 by hoppyman

[xiaubauu2009]

12 hours ago, BernardC said:

Is that the momentum in the forums, or in the real world? You have to remember that people on forums are very impatient. Lord knows what they would have done back in the day, when Hasselblad sold the same camera for almost 50 years! Now a system is considered "dead" if there hasn't been a press release in a few weeks...

The momentum of the S was very low for the first few years. It only seemed to build when the S-006 came out. It is low right now, but we are weeks away from a new model. Things should pick-up when deliveries start.

Obviously, service issues have not helped, especially in the US. Leica could have saved themselves a lot of grief with better logistics.

I will say both in the ethereal and the real world...

Anyway, my point is that having more company providing more alternative products is a plus point for us consumer/photographer, amateur or professional. Competition is a good thing, innovation as well.

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[helged]

3 hours ago, hoppyman said:

Very interesting thanks Helged. We shoot very different things and in different ways too I guess. I just have two S lenses, being the 70 and the APO Macro 120. I use them almost entirely in studio environment and stopped down. Anecdotally I think that 120 is the best performing lens I have ever had. For my SL I have the 24-90 only. Those get used in studio primarily too. 
I shall take the challenge and see what I can do about creating some flare with them now 😉 I found a handful in older shoots where the result (both lenses )ended up being quite beautiful in portraiture.

I agree - the 120 renders beautifully. But it has a tendency to flare and it has some colour fringing. Flaring can be used to add drama/effect, but it can also be a problem. One simply has to be aware of it.

6 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I agree with you about fringe color, especially LoCA during back light which is almost impossible to correct at software level. I personally never test coma on S given its poor low light performance (forced NR). 

Sharpness wise, I don't have complain on 70mm as others have. after f5.6, I don't see difference between 35/70 or 120 on 37M sensor and I am pretty careful and picky. 

WO Render wise, S glass as a set are really hard to beat. Simply incredible! but will client see it? or will you see it after f8, especially at 37M? I doubt it highly. If it can't give perceivable IQ advantage, the value of system become a question mark, that is what haunting the system most along with poor reliability and service.    

Yes, stopped a few steps down, I or others will hardly see differences between exsisting and (potential) new S-lenses. But everyone can see flaring and many can see loss of contrast against highlights. So optics/software corrections can still be improved. 

An ideal system for me have a mix of optical 'perfect' lenses and lenses with all types of optical 'characters' or 'deficiencies'. Therefore I love to use Mandler M-lenses (eg 75mm Lux-M....) - and many old lenses - on the M/SL. For the same reason I also play with eg Mamiya 645 lenses on the S (like the 80mm f1.9).

Edited February 21, 2019 by helged

[peterv]

2 hours ago, helged said:

An ideal system for me have a mix of optical 'perfect' lenses and lenses with all types of optical 'characters' or 'deficiencies'.

Exactly, that is one of the things I was trying to point out with my Arri-link one page back. There are quite a lot of flavours available to S system users with many different kinds of lenses with varying looks. The SL even more so, of course, but with a smaller sensor.

Personally, I haven't noticed lens flare to be any kind of problem on my 70CS, 120CS and/or 24mm. But I always keep the lens hoods on and I rarely shoot with backlight.