Do you assume a certain level of knowledge of a Leica shooter?

[evikne]

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8 hours ago, Me Leica! said:

Man carrying considerably expensive camera and lens combination : "What is this figure in red here?"

Shop staff, extremely politely : "That is the shutter speed, Sir".

I always shoot in fully manual mode. If I borrowed someone else's camera that was set to aperture priority and saw a red number in the viewfinder, I may have asked the same stupid question. 😬

[carbon_dragon]

Because Leicas are so expensive and most of us doing start out with enough money to buy one, it seems odd to think of it as a "first" camera. But I guess if you DO have a lot of money to start, it's not so crazy to buy an expensive first camera. Sure you won't get as much out of it, but it's still a great camera right? And maybe he was buying it for a son or daughter (though that is still uncomfortably like buying your son a Ferrari for a first car). 

Two people I knew in high school (in 1975) got a brand new screaming eagle Firebird and a Delta 88 convertible for their graduation presents. 

[lct]

Not sure what bothered you more, that he had less skills than cash or more cash than skills? Just kidding and nothing personal of course . I don't recall the first time i held a Leica. Was an M4 in the seventies i guess but i would be surprised if i knew much more than this man having enough cash to buy a Leica.

[chasdfg]

This is an interesting topic because I often feel the same way as the OP when I encounter such scenarios...but when I rationalise how I feel I always come to the conclusion I shouldn't have been so quick to judge.

- Taking the first example:  if I looked into a sony A7/A9 or leica SL EVF, or even a canon or nikon viewfinder (despite shooting nikon for many years before shifting to Leica), I can't confidently say I know what all the information in any of the EVFs/viewfinders means. Sure, sometimes shutter speeds should ring a bell, in that the same old numbers or 1/15, 30, 60, 125, etc come up. That is less excusable. In any case, it could well have been a well dressed man trying Leica in a store for the first time. I've gone into stores to try a Fuji GFX, bewildered by the buttons, knobs and functions. I'd like to think people wouldn't have judged me for being perplexed by the simple things.

- As for looking at live view, I myself use livevew to compose using the built-in level, or to do more precise focusing when shooting up close, or when my eyes are tired and strained from looking through the viewfinder. For me it's another option to compose a picture. It's not the "right way" to use the M, but it's there.

Speaking of seeing other people shoot Leicas, I love the feeling when I see someone else shooting a Leica when I travel, and when our eyes meet we nod to each other in acknowledgment. It has happened more than once and is coupled with a feeling of mutual respect or a silent understanding of some sort I cannot properly explain..

There are other situations where I see people with leicas, including plenty of "influencers" and those well dressed and sometimes fumbling, shooting Leica Q, SLs and Ms (though if money was no object, surely they should go for the S?). No silent, unspoken nods in agreement here. I think it is inescapable that the brand Leica is seen as a luxury brand, and if one can afford the most expensive bags, clothes and whatever else, they might well be able to afford the most expensive cameras, allegedly the "best" cameras because of the price tag. I've also observed that the "laypeople" who know of Leica and who spot me using one often say "you must be a good photographer", my reply being "no i'm not, I just like shooting with it" and that they should see my photos to judge me rather than judge me based on my gear. They often mention the prices of the lenses and how expensive the gear is and how much I've spent on my equipment, which I suppose is tied to the idea that money spent on the hobby is entwined with passion and/or also skill level (or the idea I am well-to-do, which I tend to distance myself from most). All this makes me feel like it discredits me as a "photographer" and elevates those who are less emotionally or financially vested in the brand to be deemed as "photographers" (financially in the sense they could afford it without contemplating for months whether to buy X or Y). It took me a long while to reach a level (in terms of ability and finance) where I felt appropriate to dip my toes into the world of Leica and longer to acquire the lenses I use today. I also know i judge begrudgingly on first sight because I know the depth of my passion, which itself only skims the surface of those who are even more emotionally vested in this brand and who can appreciate things far more than I can..and here we have people who appear to know nothing of this historical brand touting this great gear pretending to be "cartier-bresson". And when I don't share any silent understanding with the user, the lack of nods in agreement and subtle smiles act almost like confirmation of my judgmental thoughts..that they don't understand me and the brand like how me and the others do. 

Then I look at myself and think that in the world of wine, watches and cars, I know so very little, and when I eventually dip my toes there I'm likely to be fumbling too. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by chasdfg

[Ko.Fe.]

Another question to OP.

Do you know what digital Leica, starting from M240, allows you to focus and use any lens?

Any lens could be not RF lens or Leica mount lens without RF. And it is quite popular to use non RF lens on digital M allowing to do so.

Also, it is not always easy to focus with split image. Especially on the leafs.I own Leica RF cameras and talking about from user knowlege perspective.

 

[Smoothlander]

People shouldn't be so quick to judge other people.  I'd be no where today if not for the thousands of questions, stupid and otherwise, I've asked over the years.  We should welcome any and all folks into the world of Leica.  For the first year, my images taken with the M240 were simply awful.  Luckily, I met a couple of folks that patiently helped me understand the camera and the skillset needed to take manually focused shots.  I'm glad they didn't judge me based on the expense of the camera and my complete lack of skills.

[plaidshirts]

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It doesn’t bother me at all. 

From my lifelong infatuation with all kinds of different cameras I’m sure I looked like an idiot to someone at some point in the past.

[pgk]

15 hours ago, Smoothlander said:

People shouldn't be so quick to judge other people.

Spike Milligan was once asked why he took an instant dislike to some people. He replied that it saved time. Whenever I see someone using a camera with their left hand rotating the lens from over the top I avoid them for the same reason.

The ability to be able to afford something has no bearing on the buyer's ability to use it. Actually I'm grateful that many do buy Leica M cameras based on the idea that price equates to functionality, obviously then find them difficult to use and so these cameras come onto the secondhand market with very little use indeed, and having taken their depreciation.

[Paulus]

Story: Guy comes in a Dutch shop. Buys a Leica M 240 + lens. ( I believe it was a Summilux 35mm ) . Just before he leaves the shop, he asked. " It's autofocus how does it works? 

The shopkeeper, let's call him Ad,  tells him it hasn't and offers him to trade the camera back for a camera with autofocus. I forgot what camera and lens also rather expensive. 

The man buys the autofocus camera and the shopkeeper asks him if he wants his money back for the M240 + lens. " No that's not necessary " he says and takes both cameras out of the shop.  A happy buyer leaves the building. 

Does it bother me? No. It's not my money and surely he has enough. It's only € 10.000,-.....

 

 

A friend of my father always carried about f  100.000 ( that Dutch Guilders in the pre Euro time, -divide by 2,71 for Euros  ) in his his wallet. One day he was sitting in an Inn and said to the Innkeeper that it was a nice Inn. 

" It's for sale" the innkeeper said. " How much " my fathers friend said. The innkeeper wanted to write f 600.000 ,- but he forgot an "0" writing the amount on a beer underlay. So the amount my fathers friend saw was f 60.000. " Sold " he said to the Innkeeper. The Innkeeper looked at the paper and saw his handwriting saying f 60.000,- He became red and stuttered. Alright , but only if you can pay me cash here at once. 

My fathers friend put his wallet on the table. Opened it and counted 60 banknotes of f1000,- . After the 60th banknote the innkeeper started to sob and cry. His wife came out of the kitchen and ask what was wrong with him and he pointed to the f 60.000,- figures and the fact that he just sold his house /inn for this amount of money with three witnesses at the friends table ( my father included) . 

My fathers friend told him to stop crying. If he would not bill this table for eating and drinking the whole evening, he was willing to forget this transaction. They ate and drank the whole evening and my father had a wonderful story to tell, which I am telling you now. 

 

My point is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Kilmister]

@Paulus That is a really poignant tale with no real ending. It tugs at the heart strings in so many ways. Thank you for your generosity in sharing it with us. And the point is .... ?

[plaidshirts]

3 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

@Paulus That is a really poignant tale with no real ending. It tugs at the heart strings in so many ways. Thank you for your generosity in sharing it with us. And the point is .... ?

Be kind to idiots.

Edited December 30, 2018 by plaidshirts

[steveclem]

Or..... you don't have to be a ruthless bastard outside of business all the time just because you want a freebie. 

[Paulus]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Peter Kilmister:

@Paulus That is a really poignant tale with no real ending. It tugs at the heart strings in so many ways. Thank you for your generosity in sharing it with us. And the point is .... ?

Maybe " assumption is the mother of all fuckups" .

The reason why the Innkeeper did not got more problems IMHO was, because the friend of my Father, les call him Gerrit is in fact a very nice man, who always was ready for a practical joke, but he certainly had a way of joking and betting at the same time.

Because of the Inn- mans way he tried to save the situation saying " but you have to buy instantly " brought him into problems on his assumption, people don't have that kind of money on hand.

Gerrit just called his bluff. With two witnesses he certainly had a point in buying this inn, but he would not do it, because it all was a joke amongst friends on a Saturday afternoon drink. On the other hand, the innkeeper was punished because of his reckless way he played with his future and that from his wife. He was pardoned and was glad to serve them for free knowing that he has taken a wrong bet and was pardoned in a way he could live with.

What about the expensive Leica? 

 

Never assume, that people with loads of money are not capable of learning very fast when they really want something. When I bought my first camera it was an expensive one in my and certainly in my peers view. I learnt to master it in weeks and was glad to have bought it. 

if you look at all the thousands, millions of cameras bought by people who had not a clue what to do with at, saving it for the once a year trip. The money " wasted " there is in no ratio to the money wasted by one wealthy man buying a camera he cannot use at that moment. 

I never will forget the sentence in the Saint Matthew passion by Bach:"Dieses Wasser hätte mögen teuer verkauft und den Armen gegeben werden.and the same you find in Jesus Christ Superstar the musical. " Shurly your not thinking,  we've got the resources to save the poor from their lot. " :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by Paulus

[steamboat]

If I see somebody with a Leica it's usually cause for celebration. Extremely rare. I photograph the Indy 500 every year. Even there, among photojournalists and race photographers it's very rare. I remember distinctly about three years running into a French photographer at Indy complete with scarf around his neck. Very nice fellow shooting with a Leica Q and a Canon with an 85mm f1.2. Although rare to run into a person with a Leica who may not have it quite figured out yet I always ask how it's going with the Leica and whether they have any questions. Those of us who know what we're doing (?) can usually answer questions and maybe even give them a shortcut they hadn't figure out.

On the other hand....if I'm out and about with colleagues and see a slightly disreputable looking photographer with a beat up (non-Leica) camera I like to tell my friends, "hey see that guy over there? Magnum photographer probably." They say if you're in the woods and a mountain lion is tracking you, you'll never know it. I figure the same with the greats (photographers).  Unless it's Bruce Gliden. 🙂

 

[bocaburger]

Aside from LHSA meetings I have only seen one photographer using a Leica in the past 4-5 years, and he was a former camera-store owner with at least as much knowledge of how to operate a camera as me. It would bother me to see someone in a Bugatti Veyron who doesn't know how to operate it properly, but only because of the potential for collateral disaster.

[sblutter]

We were on a 3hr walking trip in Madrid - one guy also had an M240, his was fitted with the 2.0 90 - a big heavy lens.  I was using my fav walking lenses; 50 Elmarit-M (collapsible) & and the pancake Voight 35 2.5.

I'm been an M shooter for 50 yrs - was a pro for yrs, a lot of them as an architectural view camera on location guy, have had shows etc.

In 3 hours, the 90 guy never even looked through the VF'r

Maybe nothing interested him...

[Exodies]

Maybe he’d taped over the red dot so you couldn’t really see him.

[01af]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb sblutter:

[...] and the pancake Voight 35 2.5.

People using 'Voight' lenses cannot be taken for serious.

[jaapv]

Why not? We have people using Luxes, Noctis,, Rits, Mars, Crons etc. Half the time I have no idea what they are talking about. Voight? at least I can guess at the meaning.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Voight? at least I can guess at the meaning.

Maybe John Voight once owned it?(Seinfeld reference)

Jeff