Nikon Z6, Z7 and Leica SL ..... (merged)

[mmradman]

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The new Nikons validate the very concept of the SL. Remember when the SL came out? People were wondering "who is it for?", "if it's mirrorless, why are the lenses so big?", "why didn't they just release an M with a viewfinder?"

The fact that Nikon, and soon Canon are releasing similar products makes the SL an easier sell.

Easier sell providing new buyer can be satisfied with limited focal length range for instance, if you want foe example lightweight 500mm with TC or longer it is only Canon and Nikon who deliver for now.

 

Sony mirrorless price apart can attribute its success to ability to adopt third party lenses Leica among others, exotic adaptors like M lens AF adaptor contributed further to this appeal.

[frame-it]

Rewind to dec 2015..rumors of Nikon buying Samsung's mirrorless division..the NX1 was way ahead of its time in sept 2014

Edited August 29, 2018 by frame-it

[BernardC]

Easier sell providing new buyer can be satisfied with limited focal length range

Isn't that always the case with Leica? Fewer lenses, no extreme focal lengths, but higher quality in the more common focal lengths.

 

Leica will lose sales to photographers who can't live without an AF 500/4.0 (or some other exotic). They will also gain sales to photographers who want the best mid-range zoom, or the best wide angle zoom, etc...

[mmradman]

Isn't that always the case with Leica? Fewer lenses, no extreme focal lengths, but higher quality in the more common focal lengths.

 

Leica will lose sales to photographers who can't live without an AF 500/4.0 (or some other exotic). They will also gain sales to photographers who want the best mid-range zoom, or the best wide angle zoom, etc...

I was giving one example to emphasise specific strength of the system, not many people in the overall photographers population need or want 500mm.

 

Leica is not only game in town, all matter of taste and willingness to buy into the system. It seems new Z system lenses are step up in optical quality for Nikon. Nikon is hardly cheap compared to few others but bargain compared to Leica L or any other comparable lenses.

 

I mentioned earlier both companies are opposite end of market scale, producing 20,000 Z7 units per month is telling, probably exceeds SL overall production since launch. Nikon is catering for global market on big scale, both budget and discerning photographers.

 

We all go into Leica for different reasons, for me big L zooms have no appeal, however compact and cheaper Z zoom may be attractive.

[pgk]

Highlight mine... 

I don't see how. Sony has better battery life, better lenses and dual card slot. The only thing better in Nikon is weather sealing.

 

This mirrorless is only to get Nikon users excited.. but even for them, why won't they use D850 instead!! I am scratching my head.

 

Edit: I read later that battery life life is not bad. Cross that out.

 

Having just handled a Z7 this morning I can say (as a Sony user) that the Z7 is a far better thought out, and laid out tool. It was intuitive to an extent and the Sony is certainly not. It was also handled by a friend (Nikon user) who thought its layout easy to appreciate from a Nikon dSR user's point of view. Sony has a rather eclectic range of lenses and still lacks many basic ones. QC presents problems at times too. Canon's offering is due soon so it will be interesting to see their take on mirrorless. From my memory of the Leica SL it still has a viewfinder which impacted me as being excellent - the Nikon's was good but didn't have the same impact on me.

 

For me Mirrorless cameras remain in their formative stage with potential which is not as yet being utilised due to their poorly thought out systems, lack of lenses and the size of their lenses which needs to be looked into and the optical problems of making small, fast lenses solved. I use them but consider all to be compromises at this stage. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by pgk

[Reciprocity]

I pre-ordered a Z6 and adapter within moments of the official announcement via NPS. I normally don’t do things in haste like that but when I did the same thing with my D850 last year I was aptly rewarded, the D850 is still not a regular stock item a year later and mine has been nothing short of incredible. I figure it might take until December to even get the Z6 and by then some actual reviews could be had and I can always cancel if I am no longer keen to it.

 

Basically, I am interested in the Z6 for a couple reasons. One is that I really do want to do the shutter upgrade on my M10 to tone down that distinct sound it has so I will need a replacement for that while Leica in all likelihood takes their sweet a$$ time doing the upgrade. The other reason is that I only ever use the M10 with lenses in the range of 28-50 so that leaves an enormous range that have to be used with the always louder DSLR.

 

I can see using the M10 with my 28, 35 and 50 and then the Z6 with the 15 other lenses I use in my faultless Nikon system for the kind of work I use the M10 for, low key and silent if I can manage, but as quiet as possible none the less.

 

I checked out the SL years ago and while nice in some ways, I really did not care for the feel of it and certainly not the price for a tool that would see the same lack of pro support the M products do. NPS is the real deal and after numerous conversations with Leica reps in person, on the phone and through letters, it is clear to me Leica is never going to even make an attempt at coming up with even a paid system that would serve the needs of pros like NPS does.

 

I look forward to taking care of biz with an M10 and a Z6 with the right glass for the job.

[Rupert Greenwell]

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I too handled  a Z7 at probably the same place as PGK today. I was very impressed with it, seemed well built, easy to handle and with a 24-70 f4 lens attached a very compact and portable camera. The important thing for me is that it is weather sealed to the same standard as the pro Nikon dslrs. When I have seen the image results from the camera I may well consider it as a walk round camera. 

    I have a SL which is quite a bit bigger and heavier but I will be keeping that as I have just acquired a 90-280 lens, it is the CL that I was thinking of getting as a walk round camera but I am put off by the lack of weather sealing , same with the Q. I will wait and see now but the Nikon is a very interesting prospect.

   Leicarumours announced what they thought was going to be a new Leica camera with full frame I think a month or two ago but nothing came of it. I f Nikon can produce a full frame mirrorless camera body which is a lot smaller than the SL , I wonder if Leica can too.

[thighslapper]

 

 

For me Mirrorless cameras remain in their formative stage with potential which is not as yet being utilised due to their poorly thought out systems, lack of lenses and the size of their lenses which needs to be looked into and the optical problems of making small, fast lenses solved. I use them but consider all to be compromises at this stage. 

 

errr..... you mean making small, fast AF lenses of excellent optical quality.

 

The laws of optics and physics cannot be overcome ..... and the moving AF elements impose significant constraints. If you look at comparable AF mirrorless lenses they all come in at roughly the same size. 

[Wojtek]

The new Nikons validate the very concept of the SL. (...)

The fact that Nikon, and soon Canon are releasing similar products makes the SL an easier sell.

Nikon effectively kills the SL. While at the same time telling that it was a really good idea. But I think you’re mistaking those two facts. Yes, Nikon (and probably soon canon) show that SL was a very valid idea. I thing SL was visionary. But no, Nikon (and probably soon Canon) don’t make SL any single bit BETTER. Just the opposite. They take the same strategy, cut the price, and add technology. It’s time for SL2 and I hope it will be incredible. I personally prefer SL lenses over anything else... (be it 58/0.95 or whatever Sony has)

[pgk]

They do and are to do with factors which all manufacturers and optical designers adhere to. However I doubt that the optical cells in a Leica M lens actually weight too much, so its more about the optical path than the AF power. I would have thought that a non-aspheric 35/1.4 which uses modern glass could be made to operate quite effectively as an AF mirrorless lens. Challenges for sure.

[bags27]

I, too, ordered the Z6 and adapter hours after they began sales. Not sure I'll accept delivery. Rather have an SL2 if it's a bit smaller form or maybe even a CL, but Nikon is such a spectacular value comparatively. Just hoping that something happens at Photokina. 

 

I have 2 problems going back to Nikon:

1. The glass. Nikon has great glass, especially at the extreme focal lengths. But for the most used focal lengths, while Nikon is terrific, I rarely say "wow." I sometimes say wow to Zeiss photos, but far more often say wow to Leica. Ya just can't deny your gut...

2. The community. I really love the community here--to the point that I use the Q macro with filters rather than my terrific Nikon macro glass that would render a bigger image because I can't post those photos here. I simply can't find a Nikon community nearly as interesting and supportive and as centered on the important things about photography as this one.

 

I'm the OP  2 months ago on the link below, and most responders in July dismissed my question, "will impending Nikon mirrorless affect Leica's planning?" Maybe they don't dismiss it anymore, and maybe Leica doesn't either. At least I hope not.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/286256-will-impending-nikon-mirrorless-affect-leicas-planning/

Edited August 30, 2018 by bags27

[pgk]

I'm the OP  2 months ago on the link below, and most responders in July dismissed my question, "will impending Nikon mirrorless affect Leica's planning?" Maybe they don't dismiss it anymore, and maybe Leica doesn't either. At least I hope not.

 

I'm sure that Leica will be watching Nikon, Sony and potentially Canon as they vie with Mirrorless offerings. Whether they will take these cameras into account is something else. All are potentially 'legacy' compatible, offering even limited AF on many dSLR lenses. Leica can't do this but has allowed its R and M glass to be used viably, but even so cannot 'compete' with any AF legacy. So I'm not so sure how anything can affect Leica's planning. About the only significant shift Leica could make would be to try to compete on price and I suspect that's pretty unlikely.

[mmradman]

I'm sure that Leica will be watching Nikon, Sony and potentially Canon as they vie with Mirrorless offerings. Whether they will take these cameras into account is something else. All are potentially 'legacy' compatible, offering even limited AF on many dSLR lenses. Leica can't do this but has allowed its R and M glass to be used viably, but even so cannot 'compete' with any AF legacy. So I'm not so sure how anything can affect Leica's planning. About the only significant shift Leica could make would be to try to compete on price and I suspect that's pretty unlikely.

SL was discounted last year, it coincided with the launch of Sony A9.

With M line there is no competition but not so with CL, SL and S lines. L primes cost more than equivalent M lenses, small is beautiful and should command premium, by reducing cost of L lenses Leica could make itself more attractive to wider market.

 

As was mentioned by others on LUF new Nikon ML cameras bring still and video integration to a new level. Is Photokina going to bring welcoming surprises, we can only wait and see. Assuming familiar product cycles next Leica camera announcement is not SL2.

[BernardC]

As was mentioned by others on LUF new Nikon ML cameras bring still and video integration to a new level.

A whole new level...for Nikon. They are just catching-up with features that the SL has been offering for years: 10-bit to external recorders with a log curve.

 

I rather doubt that Nikon will make a dent in the video market, but Canon's mirrorless probably will. Canon could make a big splash if they incorporated the C200's RAW video format, but they may not. They have a history of holding-back on video features in stills cameras.

 

From what I've been reading, cinematographers are much more excited by the new BlackMagic Pocket Cinema 4K than they are by the Nikon Z line.

[mmradman]

A whole new level...for Nikon. They are just catching-up with features that the SL has been offering for years: 10-bit to external recorders with a log curve.

 

I rather doubt that Nikon will make a dent in the video market, but Canon's mirrorless probably will. Canon could make a big splash if they incorporated the C200's RAW video format, but they may not. They have a history of holding-back on video features in stills cameras.

 

From what I've been reading, cinematographers are much more excited by the new BlackMagic Pocket Cinema 4K than they are by the Nikon Z line.

How about full frame 4K.

[sillbeers15]

Waiting to place my preorder of SL2.

[jaapv]

How about full frame 4K.

That is a contradiction in terms;  4K = 3840 × 2160 pixels (4K UHD)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

[sdw]

That is a contradiction in terms;  4K = 3840 × 2160 pixels (4K UHD)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

 

 

I think she/he means 4K recording with full frame sensor coverage rather than Super 35 (crop) coverage as it is now. 

[howiebrou]

So will the Nikon Z7 be compatible with a techart so i can AF my M lenses?

 

I was just about to buy the Sony A7RIII when the Nikon came out. I much prefer Nikon having come up through their ranks with  F90X, F100, F200 and D1, D2 etc. I sold all my Nikon glass and bodies and got a Leica M9 when i got fed up with carrying so much stuff.

 

So it would seems choices are Sony A7RIII, Nikon Z7, Leica SL (but no AF on M lenses), New Leica full frame and perhaps CL (also no AF on M lenses) to go with my M-P 240 and Monochrom bodies.

Edited August 31, 2018 by howiebrou

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[LD_50]

There will probably be a techart available if they can make it work. Nikon doesn’t open source or license the lens mount.

 

That said, I wouldn’t want to use a techart for my M lenses because they have floating elements and the techart method of focusing doesn’t account for this. Also the experience is poor in my opinion compared to using the M lenses with manual focusing.