historical brown vulcanite

[romualdo]

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Could someone be kind enough to post a pic of the 40s "Sharkskin" covering - is it anything like the contemporary MP's "Sharkskin"?

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[wlaidlaw]

Here is my Grandfather's 1935 nickel Model II, after thorough cleaning and a single treatment of the vulcanite with Simoniz rubber restorer. I have not kept any of the before shots but it was not a pretty sight. It would have been a good match for a WW2 British army khaki camouflage fatigues uniform. I think it would be further improved by one more treatment with Simoniz. It does not really show up on the photo but there is still a slight brown tinge to the vulcanite. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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[willeica]

Could someone be kind enough to post a pic of the 40s "Sharkskin" covering - is it anything like the contemporary MP's "Sharkskin"?

 

 This is a quick grab shot of one of my 3 sharkskin Leicas. This one is a Ic converted to a IIf Black Dial, probably in the early 1950s. The 'modern' MP film camera, introduced about 50 years later, has a quite different covering.

 

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William

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

 

Do you know if the "sharkskin" was an optional extra/special order or just what was used during a certain period. My, ex my father's,1953 IIf has regular vulcanite. 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

William, 

 

Do you know if the "sharkskin" was an optional extra/special order or just what was used during a certain period. My, ex my father's,1953 IIf has regular vulcanite. 

 

Wilson

 

Not optional. It was the only covering offered at certain periods. It would have gone by 1953. Sharkskin has been the subject of several articles, but I have never seen one that it is definitive, particularly as regards 'upgraded' cameras, converted to Black Dial. Some of these were cameras sent in by customers and were converted to Black Dial and kept their sharkskin after the 'upgrade', but I feel that others may have been unsold 'c' stock with sharkskin which were converted to Black Dial from factory stocks and were converted in the factory before issue into the market.

 

I have 3 sharkskin models, a IIIc with the usual chrome pitting, a IIIc converted to a IIIf Black Dial with immaculate chrome and the Ic converted to a IIf Black Dial pictured above. I also have a Ic and a IIc from the same period with 'ordinary' vulcanite. SNs overlap quite a bit and it is quite difficult to predict whether a camera from that period has sharkskin. There are also other features to be noted such as the 'plug' (also covered in sharkskin on relevant cameras ) which is on all models of postwar cameras other than IIIs as by then a III with a slow speed dial had become the most common model, leading to standardised body shells. With the Black Dial models upgraded IIIcs kept their top plate and had an additional 'circular' plate added for the Black Dial sync numbers. Converted I models needed a new top plate and, hence, had engraved numbers under the shutter/sync dials.

 

My 3 sharkskin models have the usual vertical sharkskin, but there are a small number of cameras with horizontal sharkskin which are very rare. Some say that such cameras were covered with material left over from pieces used to cover some Leica lenses which had sharkskin bands, such as 90mm Elmars.

 

I am sure that I have left out some aspects, but it should be obvious that there is more to this sharkskin business than meets the eye. I am also sure that Jerzy, Alan and others would have more to add on this topic.

 

William

[schattenundlicht]

Here is my Grandfather's 1935 nickel Model II, after thorough cleaning and a single treatment of the vulcanite with Simoniz rubber restorer. I have not kept any of the before shots but it was not a pretty sight. It would have been a good match for a WW2 British army khaki camouflage fatigues uniform. I think it would be further improved by one more treatment with Simoniz. It does not really show up on the photo but there is still a slight brown tinge to the vulcanite. 

 

Wilson

Maybe with such a family-owned, honourfully aged specimen, I personally would not aim at restoring „better thatn new“ but would retain some patina, the amount of which, of course, has to be acceptable to you. But then, this will be a matter for a wide range of opinions, and the only one that counts is yours.

 

Kind regards

Mathias

[wlaidlaw]

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Maybe with such a family-owned, honourfully aged specimen, I personally would not aim at restoring „better thatn new“ but would retain some patina, the amount of which, of course, has to be acceptable to you. But then, this will be a matter for a wide range of opinions, and the only one that counts is yours.

 

Kind regards

Mathias

 

Matthias, 

 

There is plenty of patina on the camera but the vulcanite was such a hideous colour, that I could not live with it and I felt it really detracted from the camera. Unlike my Model 1C standard and Model III, which had both suffered horrible amateur repair jobs, the IC with black nail varnish and the III with what looked like domestic gloss paint, the vulcanite on my Model II was intact and the original paint reasonable. It was just a question of making it look better, without damaging the original material, which I think I have achieved. The IC had to be recovered and the III both recovered and repainted. 

 

If you had a family portrait, where the original varnish had gone brown and opaque, you would not leave it like that but have it cleaned and restored to nearer the original appearance. That is what I feel I have done with my Grandfather's Model II. 

 

Wilson

Edited August 9, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[schattenundlicht]

Matthias, 

 

There is plenty of patina on the camera but the vulcanite was such a hideous colour, that I could not live with it and I felt it really detracted from the camera. Unlike my Model 1C standard and Model III, which had both suffered horrible amateur repair jobs, the IC with black nail varnish and the III with what looked like domestic gloss paint, the vulcanite on my Model II was intact and the original paint reasonable. It was just a question of making it look better, without damaging the original material, which I think I have achieved. The IC had to be recovered and the III both recovered and repainted. 

 

If you had a family portrait, where the original varnish had gone brown and opaque, you would not leave it like that but have it cleaned and restored to nearer the original appearance. That is what I feel I have done with my Grandfather's Model II. 

 

Wilson

Wilson,

 

I did not question the fine result that you have achieved so far, my comment was merely aimed at your deliberations with regard to a further application of Simoniz.

 

I have also treated vulcanite myself when the visual appearance tended towards 'ugly' or 'eek'.

 

Kind regards

Mathias

Edited August 10, 2018 by schattenundlicht

[wlaidlaw]

I think the modern equivalent of the sharkskin is called Griptac. When I was one of the early people to have my dark grey paint finish M9 sensor replaced for corrosion in 2012, I sent the camera to Solms, with lovely dark blue textured kid leather covering. It came back with the rather nasty, although no doubt very practical Griptac synthetic covering. When I objected, Leica were very apologetic and said I was supposed to have been asked which of the à la carte coverings I wanted and it had just slipped through the net. They collected it and now it is covered in the reasonably nice "Jaguar" green Nappa leather - not as nice as the dark blue kid but a lot better looking than Griptac and I think nicer to hold. 

 

Wilson

[jerzy]

as William wrote sharkskin vulcanite was not an option, was just used for a short period of time.

Picture below show cameras with horizontal and vertical vulcanite. Both cameras have close SNs (476xxx, 477xxx), other samples show that horizontal and vertical weree used alternatively, horizontal being rare (approx 10% of sharkskin camera which I saw were horizontal).

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Very often sharkskin camera show chrome defects. It has nothing to do with vulcanite itself, in the same period of time when Leitz was using sharkskin they had problem with chrome supplies.

Interesting camera with sharskin is shown below - postwar IIIb 357109 described in Viewfinder 49-2 in 2016. Camera is marked as IIIa in Leitz delivery records, but is deffinitevly original IIIb. Was internal sale, to employee from optics dept. Nickel Hektor (SN 96xxx) is coated

 

 

[willeica]

Thanks, Jerzy. That 'out of period' IIIb with sharkskin must have been a 'one off' for a Leitz employee produced during the sharkskin period. All other sharkskin models that I have seen have been 'c' models or 'upgraded c' models. Any Black Dial f  models I have seen with sharkskin appear to have been upgraded 'c' models. I am fairly sure that no original Black Dial f models were produced with sharkskin, although I have a feeling that apart from customers sending in their 'c' models for upgrade, Leica may have used unsold stocks of 'c' cameras for producing early Black Dial f models. I have some later 'c' models (a I and a II to be precise), which were produced just before or around the time that the Black Dial f was introduced and which have 'ordinary' vulcanite

 

The horizontal banding in about 10% of cameras can only really be explained by some kind of 'end of roll' use. I think it was you, or, perhaps, someone else with great knowledge of the period that told me that.

 

You are right that there is no co-relation between the sharkskin covering and chrome pitting. This was down to shortage of materials and, in a way, it fits in with the grey paint models which were produced earlier. That is why I would not have the one example, I have with chrome pitting, re-chromed as it tells something historical. Most 'c's  which had been upgraded to Black Dial f seem to have perfect chrome which may point to new base plates being provided at the upgrade stage. I already mentioned above that Ic models upgraded to IIs and IIIs would have received a new top plate at the upgrade stage. It is a fascinating little 'micro period' in the history of Leica which is well worth studying.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

My M4 which I am certain has never been recovered (I have had it since new), has an embossed leather covering. When Peter Grisaffi was doing the CLA and RF rebuild on it (fungus) he asked when I had it recovered and who had done it because it was a very nice job. I said I was sure that it was all as original. It was originally destined in the first batch of M4's made (#0047 of the production M4's), to go out as a dealer demo camera. We wondered therefore if Leica had been a bit sneaky and put leather on the early demo cameras, so people would say what a lovely finish they had. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

I have just noticed something very odd, when I was taking a picture of my IIf for the thread on the insolvency of the company proposing to make the Meyer Gorlitz 105mm lens. Although the body is covered in regular vulcanite, the blanking plug for the slow speeds aperture is covered in horizontal sharksin. This camera, bought new by my father in Brooklyn in 1953 is completely original and has never been recovered (it was basically never used). I had never noticed this in the 50+ years I have had the camera. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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[willeica]

Thanks Wilson. You, once again, have me checking my collection. I have 4 cameras with the blanking plug. Apart from the Ic with sharkskin converted to IIf Black Dial, all of the others (a Ic, IIc and a IIf Red Dial with 1/1000th top speed) have 'normal' vulcanite and a blanking plug to match. The blanking plug on the sharkskin model has sharkskin slightly off vertical, pointing at about 1 O'Clock. I imagine that in the case of your camera the blanking plug was swapped around at service or, perhaps, someone in the factory picked up a blanking plate with the 'wrong' vulcanite. Nobody ever said that the Leica factory did everything perfectly, as the operatives were and are human beings who, as we know, are prone to 'errors'.

 

While I had my cameras out I have decided to post a picture illustrating a point that I have made in previous posts above. In the picture below the camera on top is a IIIc converted to a IIIf Black Dial. The numbers on the dial were added by means of a little screw on plate as the camera did not need a new top plate. The camera below is a Ic converted to a IIf Black Dial and as this was receiving a new top plate as part of the conversion, it had the numbers on the black dial engraved or stamped.

 

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Both of these cameras are sharkskin models. If the IIIf BD seems a bit larger, it is because it is sitting on a Leicavit (SYOOM).

 

William

Edited August 14, 2018 by willeica

[frame-it]

this is a cool thread..

 

was reading this today will probably give my iiic to a company in Japan for a new covering

 

http://www.aki-asahi.com/store/html/M3_buddha/install-4008/index.html

[wlaidlaw]

On the SYOOM where I am on the look out for a nice European sourced one to use on my IIIg, I see a well known Hong Kong Leica seller, is asking €2500 for a rather worn version - there's optimism for you. Alternatively a Canadian seller has a nicer one with a IIIf BD thrown in for just US$695 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

On the SYOOM where I am on the look out for a nice European sourced one to use on my IIIg, I see a well known Hong Kong Leica seller, is asking €2500 for a rather worn version - there's optimism for you. Alternatively a Canadian seller has a nicer one with a IIIf BD thrown in for just US$695 

 

Wilson

 

I paid somewhat less than the latter price for my SYOOM. The first price is ridiculous unless there is something special about the particular version on sale. There can be issues with SYOOMs matching up with cameras, which, I believe, we have discussed here before with differing views and experiences among forum members. My SYOOM works on about 40% of the cameras it should work with - the main issue is to get a full wind per pull with the shutter speed properly lined up. It relates to the film spool spindle adjustment and can be fixed on the camera.

 

The Black Dial models are very nice cameras and are more rare than the more sought after Red Dial models which have an improved shutter. It is always possible to get a camera thrown in for just the price of an accessory. For instance, I once got a IIIf RD/ DA for the price of the Visoflex and 65mm lens which were attached to it, meaning that I, effectively, got the camera for free.

 

William

Edited August 14, 2018 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

I thought of getting a MOOLY-C but they are very expensive and it is then an expensive and long winded modification to get that to work on a IIIg. I think that Ottmar Michaely is the only person with the correct parts to do the mod. 

 

Wilson

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[250swb]

Absolutely correct that Vulcanite (Vulkanit) is a rubber petrochemical based product. When my collection was housed in my store in a display case with fluorescent lighting, some of the Vulcanite on several screw mount cameras was turning brown. I suspect exposure to UV radiation was causing the problem. I used a car detailing product for preserving and restoring the black appearance of door seals, dashes and tires on the Vulcanite with good success. I think the product I used was called Back to Black. Currently I think Maguires makes the best of these types of rubber treatments.

 

 

I would be careful of products such as 'Back to Black' because if you have any semblance of colour left in the Vulcanite the solvents will remove it for good if used over time. Think about how it works on cars, it isn't just a black finish that goes over the top of the discoloured rubber or plastic, the solvents clean the 'dead' surface while at the same time replacing it with a mildly protective black pigment. Use it often enough on a typical piece of plastic, maybe a number plate surround, door mirror etc., and after a few years the solvents in 'Back to Black' will have leched out the native colour leaving it grey, the very thing using it was supposed to hide. These products are now widely looked down upon in the car detailing industry and only used on consumables such as tyres.

[alan mcfall]

I thought of getting a MOOLY-C but they are very expensive and it is then an expensive and long winded modification to get that to work on a IIIg. I think that Ottmar Michaely is the only person with the correct parts to do the mod. 

 

Wilson

 

My IIIg with the Mooly or the Leicavit.

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Mooly's are a little tempremental no matter what camera they are mated with.