Really “Is it the end of M road”?

[adan]

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What we need is someone with a A7RII (42 Mp) and M adapter (or as Scott says, a CL), and any 24-Mp Leica M. To simply shoot a sample picture of a detail-rich subject/scene with both, with the same Leica lens/apertures etc.

 

Show me a picture that reveals more detail with a given M lens (a distant sign X can be read with more pixels, but not with 24) - and I'm convinced.

 

That may leave the question of corner performance open (not there on a CL, perhaps compromised by Sony's sensor stack) but I'll accept the principle.

 

Talk is cheap.

Edited August 15, 2018 by adan

[Jon Warwick]

What we need is someone with a A7RII (42 Mp) and M adapter (or as Scott says, a CL), and any 24-Mp Leica M. To simply shoot a sample picture of a detail-rich subject/scene with both, with the same Leica lens/apertures etc.

 

Show me a picture that reveals more detail with a given M lens (a distant sign X can be read with more pixels, but not with 24) - and I'm convinced.

 

That may leave the question of corner performance open (not there on a CL, perhaps compromised by Sony's sensor stack) but I'll accept the principle.

 

Talk is cheap.

Someone has indeed done this with the Sony in this forum, I believe, with the 50 APO and other lenses (looking at the centre and edges of the image). I’m struggling to find the link though - maybe if he/she reads this he/she could oblige!

 

I thought image quality with the higher megapixel Sony was extraordinary compared to 24mp when I resampled it at a much large size to replicate what I’d print at. The Leica 24mp looked soft and unreal, whereas the Sony with its higher megapixels looked like you could touch the object ...

 

For me, something like a 24”x16” is small. Admittedly, i am travelling around at present in the Alps with a 5x4” camera to print to 70” wide, so it could all be relative!

 

The M 246 (and/or Monochrom 1) are the outliers though in the M universe - THAT resamples to large sizes incredibly well, compared to the average quality off the colour bayer 24mp Leicas.

 

I am increasingly resigning myself on this forum to the possibility that either people don’t do large scale prints here, and / or they just use their Leicas to look at images on screen (BOTH of which are 100% fine, of course, each to their own) .... but it’s on the very large prints that megapixels become rather important and very noticeable!

Edited August 15, 2018 by Jon Warwick

[lct]

Little doubt that more details will be seen out of the a7r2 unless the lens if soft i guess. 

[colonel]

This is posted everytime Leica release a new camera

It was also posted quite recently everytime Sony released a new camera

 

Diglloyd hates Leica M because he can't focus properly

He has said so repeatedly

He's just a lazy photographer who should stick with the excellent RX100 series (I have one)

Edited August 15, 2018 by colonel

[01af]

 

That is in no way an exception because any lens would benefit from more megapixels.

We've been here before. It will only benefit if the output requires it and there is some relevant data to utilise.

 

Yes, you said so before, and you're still wrong.

 

 

Increasing the megapixels for this lens will not have any benefit whatsoever, believe me.

The benefit may be so infinitesimally small that it apparently just isn't there for any practical intents or purposes. But a benefit there will be.

[pgk]

The benefit may be so infinitesimally small that it apparently just isn't there for any practical intents or purposes. But a benefit there will be.

 

Then it is, by definition, of no benefit. My point entirely.

 

I do print reasonably large FWIW and have images of differing MPixels side by side. The problem is that they are of different subjects so comparisons are difficult. Or are they? Surely if the image is a good image and not detracted by the technology or lens which took it then there is no issue? Imperceptible differences are irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

[Chaemono]

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What we need is someone with a A7RII (42 Mp) and M adapter (or as Scott says, a CL), and any 24-Mp Leica M. To simply shoot a sample picture of a detail-rich subject/scene with both, with the same Leica lens/apertures etc.

 

Show me a picture that reveals more detail with a given M lens (a distant sign X can be read with more pixels, but not with 24) - and I'm convinced.

 

I have that, actually an α7R III, and it does. But the corner performance sucks. I thought about getting a Kolari modified Sony, but the M10’s low light performance holds up well enough against the Sony up to a certain ISO level and I love the tones the M10 produces, better than the SL, but not quite as good as the Sony. But the most important thing, I absolutely love how the M10 handles and how it handles with the Visoflex even. Looking through the Visoflex, I can move the focus point more quickly with the M10 than using the joystick on the α7R III (everything is just cramped in my face and the joystick is tiny). If I keep the shutter half pressed on the M10 magnification doesn’t come on as I turn the focus ring of an M lens and I can use focus peaking without magnification. If I let go of the shutter, magnification comes on for more precision. And the focus peaking works better with the M10 and the Visoflex than with the Sony. I do love the Sony with the Sonnar 55/1.8 in low light church situation. The ultimate is the 55 Otus with the Sony there but so unwieldy. The M10 just handles more fluidly than the Sony with M lenses. Anyway, all of that Sony IQ advantage will be gone when the SL2 comes out next year, hopefully by the second quarter. And if Leica puts IBIS into the S008, which I believe they will (hopefully we’ll know by the end of September if they can fix the production issues), there is a slight chance they might do so in the SL2 as well.

 

And I will do the X test for you. The Sony sensor is stunning with M lenses, but, of course, only in the center. But as far as “Leica 24mp looked soft and unreal, whereas the Sony with its higher megapixels looked like you could touch the object ...” Don’t believe this. I’ll do tons of these comparisons and flood this thread with them.

[Chaemono]

And here the Sony gear. M to E-mount adapter not shown. 

 

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[Jon Warwick]

Here was the link I referred to - 4th post down. Thanks to onasj for his efforts.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/285663-noctilux-75125-images/page-1

 

Again, I’d assume differences that we see between 24mp and 42mp depend on how big we print!

Edited August 15, 2018 by Jon Warwick

[Chaemono]

I’ll be posting them right into this thread.

[rodders]

Death of the M - not in the near future I would expect.

 

Leica is M and they know it. I doubt most people when they think Leica image the S or other Leica cameras.

 

A stroll in town during lunch today says it all. Only one camera marketed I dare say because of how important it is to all the cameras and lens' Leica sell.

 

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[jaapv]

Oh-they'll never stop making it. The question is in which direction they will develop it.

[dantemi]

the M experience will remain the same even in 5 years, the user experience will improve for sure as it happened since the launch of the M8 

[AlanD]

http://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2016/7/9/leica-35mm-summicron-asph-i-vs-ii-24mp-vs-42mp-resolution-test

 

This is always a great look at optical design vs manufacturing. The new 35/2 ASPH is better than the old one.

[adan]

Here was the link I referred to - 4th post down. Thanks to onasj for his efforts.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/285663-noctilux-75125-images/page-1

 

Again, I’d assume differences that we see between 24mp and 42mp depend on how big we print!

 

 

Jon - thanks for that link.

 

What I see there confirms my hypothesis, in this way.

 

Leica 75 Noctilux images of terra-cotta pot:

 

At f/1.25, (very good, but not best resolution) there is no additional detail of information in the Sony 42 Mp image. The M10 image uprezzed to the same size reveals every chip and crinkle that the Alpha image does, just as crisply. In fact the M10 better defines the crinkles and bumps in the very central terra-cotta "spot" in the middle.

 

At f/5.6, (best resolution or close), then the Sony jumps well ahead.

 

Once the lens resolution is high enough, more Mp are desirable.

 

The question, of course, is - is a $13,000 signature lens representative of the performance of the general run of $2200-$4500 Leica lenses? If your photography demands something other than 75mm or 50mm APO focal lengths, is there a 35 or 28 or 24 or 135 for the M, that will hold up at 40+ Mpixels in the same way?

 

I wouldn't assume that, but I'm very interested in seeing additional samples from across the Leica M range. And it is possible, of course, that Leica will continue to upgrade all their focal-length range - I hope not making all lenses cost $13,000 in the process.

[rivi1969]

Would be interesting to see how Leica's target is divided, not by socio-economics -we already know China is their main market- but by age. How many young photographers are getting into the M-system? are they familiar with the brand? I have seen very few people on the streets with Leicas, none of them young. I guess the end of the road would be dictated by demand. But in the mainstream camera wars, where all the marketing money is, Leica is not a player.

[Chaemono]

The incredible but underappreciated 35 Summicron-M (small, light, and excellent) wide open on the α7R III and on the M10. These are just two quick shots from today. No tripod used.

 

Okay, so let's say you come home from a day's of street shooting and as you go through the pictures you start to wonder what all those street signs in them say. Ever had that feeling? Let's look at some pictures then. These are equally sharpened in LR but left as they came out of the camera otherwise with AWB by the camera and no corrections and lens profiles applied. First the Sony, then the M10

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/

 

Sony + 35 Summicron-M

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ISO 200 f/2.0 @1/640 sec.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

Now the M10

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/

 

M10 + 35 Summicron-M

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ISO 200 f/2.0 @1/500 sec.

[Chaemono]

And now the crops. Here the M10 is holding up okay.

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/

 

Sony

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M10

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[M11 for me]

What do you look at to come to your conclusion? I look at you Smugmug pictures on the iPad though. But I can not see a difference. The M10 should be better :-(((