Leica S3

[xiaubauu2009]

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I'll respectfully disagree. When S2 was introduced 10 years ago, the DSLR-sized MF body with excellent weather resistant properties was one of the key selling points. And since there was no competition, Leica could charge any price they wanted. This time has passed already, and other manufacturers produce similar size/feature bodies at a better price. No monopoly anymore, but Leica apparently doesn't want to notice that.

 

Interestingly, fujirumors reports that the Fuji GFX50s sensor costs $2k to produce. Assuming that Leica S sensor costs the same, what does the rest of the price justify? R&D expenses for the same body as 10 years ago are minimal. 

 

 

correction, it's GFX50r. It's a Rangefinder style... emphasis on 'style' camera. It has no OVF like the Fujifilm Xpro series. It's more like a X-E2 or 3 on Steroid. I think. It's to attract people to jump away from full frame when then want to upgrade from APS size sensor by offering about the same price as the Nikon Z7, or the about to be release Canon R, so that Fujifilm will be in a niche of its own with some very very potent capability, a huge jump in IQ for those moving from APS, not just a little offer by full frame camera.

 

Leica really need to put their game face on. I heard that Panasonic is announcing their full frame camera... heard it might be sharing the same kind of form factor and tech as the next gen Leica SL....

Edited September 2, 2018 by xiaubauu2009

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[kparseg]

correction, it's GFX50r. It's a Rangefinder style... emphasis on 'style' camera. It has no OVF like the Fujifilm Xpro series. It's more like a X-E2 or 3 on Steroid. I think. It's to attract people to jump away from full frame when then want to upgrade from APS size sensor by offering about the same price as the Nikon Z7, or the about to be release Canon R, so that Fujifilm will be in a niche of its own with some very very potent capability, a huge jump in IQ for those moving from APS, not just a little offer by full frame camera.

 

Leica really need to put their game face on. I heard that Panasonic is announcing their full frame camera... heard it might be sharing the same kind of form factor and tech as the next gen Leica SL....

The Fuji's point is to attract new customers, even if it reuses the old 50s sensor. Why can't Leica do the same? If Neil is correct and S3 would just have updated sensor and the rest will be very similar to S2/006/007, what prevents Leica to offer S3 or another budget camera at a much reduced price? Come on, it's not 2008 anymore. R&D was done 10 years ago. 

 

Hasselblad almost died 5 years ago exactly because it was trying to sell good quality products at the luxury prices. They got lucky that Chinese bought them and changed the marketing strategy. Look at X1D, it's not $28k and the quality is at least as good as S. 

 

In response to comments by other forum members.... sure, it's your money to spend and I have no issues if you like to pay $20k extra for Leica label. My concern about the Leica price policy is that it doesn't attract new customers. A company survives only when it attracts new customers. Before it was M cameras, the smallest FF ones with smallest and high quality M lenses; S2, the smallest digital MF camera with superb and brightest lenses. But it's 2018 and these cameras and lenses are not something unique anymore. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by kparseg

[Guest]

The Fuji's point is to attract new customers, even if it reuses the old 50s sensor. Why can't Leica do the same? If Neil is correct and S3 would just have updated sensor and the rest will be very similar to S2/006/007, what prevents Leica to offer S3 or another budget camera at a much reduced price? Come on, it's not 2008 anymore. R&D was done 10 years ago.

 

Hasselblad almost died 5 years ago exactly because it was trying to sell good quality products at the luxury prices. They got lucky that Chinese bought them and changed the marketing strategy. Look at X1D, it's not $28k and the quality is at least as good as S.

 

In response to comments by other forum members.... sure, it's your money to spend and I have no issues if you like to pay $20k extra for Leica label. My concern about the Leica price policy is that it doesn't attract new customers. A company survives only when it attracts new customers. Before it was M cameras, the smallest FF ones with smallest and high quality M lenses; S2, the smallest digital MF camera with superb and brightest lenses. But it's 2018 and these cameras and lenses are not something unique anymore.

+1

You said what I wanted to say .....except I wouldn't have been as political correct as you mate

Neil

[Photon42]

I hope they have done a proper market analysis. Leica has to be very careful, of course. But then they do have new built a more diversified portfolio than Hasselblad, or P1 for that matter. Much so. I am not overly concerned for the company. It would of course be interesting to see the revenue and net income per product line and client segment, but I have no insights. I would also guess that the incremental development cost is less than for the older models. Most lenses are there and most issues are ironed out now. Form factor and mechanical components may stay the same or get standard improvements.

 

The mood on the internet is not always a good indicator for sales realities. Die Z7 seems to sell very well despite no one other than selected reviewers had the chance to work with it in depth. Leica has never seen itself in the same price league as other manufacturers. This is not now, but gets brought up on almost any new camera they come out with. I guess the factor 2-4 can easily be applied (some exceptions for DLUX). So far it seems they get away with it well enough. And the S3 does not seem to be off here.

 

Quick note on the X1D: I own an S2 because I had access to one which was less than half the price of a used SL. My ten year old S2 eats the X1D for breakfast on versatilty, usability and speed any day for me. I just tried it again. On my S2 I can go cheap or expensive on lenses: Mamiya 645, Pentax 6x7, Hasselblad V, Contax 645, Hasselblad HC, Leica S. Leaf shutter / Focal Plane shutter. SD card or CF card. or both. It is a wonderful machine.

[Chaemono]

No, they won’t be able to justify the premium with virtually the same body, others here have confirmed this, the same OVF, and 64 MPx. No way. They will price themselves out of the MF market for sure. They need to have a unique selling point, M as a rangefinder with excellent compact lenses, SL viewfinder with outstanding SL lenses (granted sensor is a bit dated). What will be the unique selling point of the S3/S008 with virtually the same body, same OVF, and 64 MPx? Answer, it has to be IBIS. Otherwise at $28K they are out of the game.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Chaemono

[alan.y]

So the $28000 figure comes from Neil and Neil only? If I remember correctly, a couple months ago his source (Leica Store KL manager) told him that a new mirrorless full frame Leica was coming instead of the watches.

[Guest]

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So the $28000 figure comes from Neil and Neil only? If I remember correctly, a couple months ago his source (Leica Store KL manager) told him that a new mirrorless full frame Leica was coming instead of the watches.

I guess you will find out next week

Neil

[xiaubauu2009]

I hope they have done a proper market analysis. Leica has to be very careful, of course. But then they do have new built a more diversified portfolio than Hasselblad, or P1 for that matter. Much so. I am not overly concerned for the company. It would of course be interesting to see the revenue and net income per product line and client segment, but I have no insights. I would also guess that the incremental development cost is less than for the older models. Most lenses are there and most issues are ironed out now. Form factor and mechanical components may stay the same or get standard improvements.

 

The mood on the internet is not always a good indicator for sales realities. Die Z7 seems to sell very well despite no one other than selected reviewers had the chance to work with it in depth. Leica has never seen itself in the same price league as other manufacturers. This is not now, but gets brought up on almost any new camera they come out with. I guess the factor 2-4 can easily be applied (some exceptions for DLUX). So far it seems they get away with it well enough. And the S3 does not seem to be off here.

 

Quick note on the X1D: I own an S2 because I had access to one which was less than half the price of a used SL. My ten year old S2 eats the X1D for breakfast on versatilty, usability and speed any day for me. I just tried it again. On my S2 I can go cheap or expensive on lenses: Mamiya 645, Pentax 6x7, Hasselblad V, Contax 645, Hasselblad HC, Leica S. Leaf shutter / Focal Plane shutter. SD card or CF card. or both. It is a wonderful machine.

 

 

X1D is a half baked product with good potential, conceived during their difficult time. I am sure with DJI money and motivation to succeed, they will turn around with the 100mp BSI sensor in Gen2.  In terms of versatility on lenses, you Leica is laughable compare to GFX or X1D, it's just the nature of mirrorless. 

 

Like I said before, Leica S need to put their game face on... Brand-name means nothing when it comes to pure image quality. Let's hope they deliver, or at least in offer something unique and different than the market.

 

Price wise, I think, Leica will be Leica. Hahaha and people are willing to pay for it, like me.... I just bought a M240P Titan set.... for no particular reason other than that it look sooooo nice.

[djmay]

I think many people will be surprised by Leica's approach. Sorry to sound like a tease, it is not intentional.

Jesse

[Jeff S]

Well it would be nice to learn the approach this month..... while product announcements from other companies are seemingly coming like hotcakes.

 

Jeff

[AlanD]

I think many people will be surprised by Leica's approach. Sorry to sound like a tease, it is not intentional.

Jesse

Pleasantly surprised or just surprised?

[djmay]

Pleasantly surprised or just surprised?

Pleasantly, unless you were were wanting something else;)

Jesse

[Chaemono]

So, it’ll come in black and silver!

[xiaubauu2009]

No, they won’t be able to justify the premium with virtually the same body, others here have confirmed this, the same OVF, and 64 MPx. No way. They will price themselves out of the MF market for sure. They need to have a unique selling point, M as a rangefinder with excellent compact lenses, SL viewfinder with outstanding SL lenses (granted sensor is a bit dated). What will be the unique selling point of the S3/S008 with virtually the same body, same OVF, and 64 MPx? Answer, it has to be IBIS. Otherwise at $28K they are out of the game.

 

 

IBIS in a mirror SLR? that's not really possible, is it? ohh Sony has done it before with the A99? or something... I think.

[sincurves]

Upgradeable sensor unit, now that would be novel.

[Chaemono]

IBIS in a mirror SLR? that's not really possible, is it? ohh Sony has done it before with the A99? or something... I think.

There is no technical reason why it can’t be done. Nikon and Canon probably just thought stabilized lenses instead would be a better solution. The only reason I’m speculating in this direction is because I heard that they were having production issues with the S3/S008. It could be anything else that makes it more difficult to produce the cameras but the new model for sure won’t be an S007 remake with more MPx. Anyway, it’s about time Leica reveals something otherwise this speculation as fun as it is will turn people off.

[helged]

S3 confirmed https://leicarumors.com/2018/09/04/leica-s3-medium-format-camera-announcement-confirmed.aspx/

[kparseg]

Pleasantly, unless you were were wanting something else;)

Jesse

Oh boy, I think we speak different languages. Why does it matter if there is another $30k Leica S that can have some nice features if so many people can't afford it? If it's a luxury product, why not make something that will destroy offers from other manufacturers? Why not go with Fuji GFX and Hassy X1D approach, which might already make Phase One move away from small MF market and was a huge success for both companies? I can't even imagine how many new customers both Fuji and Hassy attracted and will attract even more in the near future with the new 50R, 100S and X2D. Let alone the difference in lens prices...

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Hallo,

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[Chaemono]

Upgradeable sensor unit, now that would be novel.

Swapping in a black and white sensor, for example.

[helged]

Swapping in a black and white sensor, for example.

Fits well with earlier 'speculations' https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/279433-who-wants-leica-to-make-a-s-monochrom/Page-1. So we will see a S-system a la the Ricoh GXR modular system?