LENR (and the consequences of turning it off)

[mdemeyer]

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I know there are many discussions about the inability to turn off LENR on 2 sec and longer exposures, and do not wish to debate that user choice on this would be a good thing.  But I had an experience the other day that made me want to ask a question.

 

I was shooting some architectural interiors in a dimly-lit concert call the other day.  I made some exposures at 1 sec and some at 2 sec, both at ISO 400.  Shooting RAW + JPG - both show the same result.

 

When I processed the images I just happened to select the 1 second exposures.  The have quite a lot of bright colored pixels, especially visible in the darker (less exposed) areas of the images.  Unless I'm reducing the resolution to about 30% or less, they are obvious in the processed images.  I could go in with the LR or PS spot fixing tool and get rid of them, but it would be a lot of work.

 

Out of curiosity I went back and looked at the 2 second exposures that used LENR.  Nice and clean.  So the LENR was doing what it was supposed to.

 

My question, though, is, "If you turned off LENR on long exposures, how would you deal with the mess of colored spots?"  While I understand the extra time to make the dark field image is troublesome in some situations, the colored spots seem like a royal pain to take care of after the fact. 

 

In my case, had a realized it made such a difference, I'd have shot all these at 2 seconds...

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[Bill W]

There are other camera systems that do not use NR like Leica does and I think folks wish Leica could adopt that processing. Personally it does not bother me with my style of shooting but I can see how it might others. If I had the option to turn it off, I would not. It seems like it would create another processing step but I might be wrong. FWIW

[pico]

There are other camera systems that do not use NR like Leica does and I think folks wish Leica could adopt that processing.

 

Interesting! How do 'the other camera systems' accomplish it?

[jdlaing]

Interesting! How do 'the other camera systems' accomplish it?

In the case of Sony they don’t. Shots of the night sky and stars disappear.

[Bill W]

Not a clue, it is way over my head. Hasselblad does not use NR in camera.

[mdemeyer]

Based on what I saw, I rather wish I could have turned it on at 1 sec...

[jaapv]

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Interesting! How do 'the other camera systems' accomplish it?

indeed. I sometimes get the impression that folks don’t understand what LENR is about. There is no way that it can be simulated in post processing.

[frame-it]

But, do "other cameras" have hot pixels and sensor noise on a 2 second exposure at ISO 400 ?

Edited July 1, 2018 by frame-it

[jaapv]

yes.

[gbealnz]

Well, I'll toss my 2 cents in.

 

In my case, LENR is a pain, but for "most" of my shooting it isn't an issue, I simply don't do long exposures, and if I did then I accept it is what Leica have and shut up about it.

 

Where I did use long exposures, I am talking 2-3-5 to even 10 minute shots, of astro targets, with a giuded mount, using camera lenses, or scopes.

 

Fuji have this area sorted, nice clean shots, and no LENR. If I wanted (and I usually did) I simply shot a srries of "darks" same ISO/temp/time as the "lights, and subtracted them. So one "Master Dark" did all the calibration on my lights, which I also "stacked/combined".

 

Confused? Well, for astro if I had to wait for the auto LENR to calibrate each and every shot, I'd go mad.

 

For the average Joe Bloe it makes no difference but if you want to shoot astro it sure does. I have so far tried my T's, and my Q, plus the SL. T is limited to 30 secs, so limited there, Q had the LENR and so the couple of shots I tried it with drove me to not ever trying it again, a 5 year old Fuji is better (for me).

 

Gary

[jaapv]

Astro photography is a highly specialized subject. If I were doing it, I would not be using any general camera, let alone Leica, but a dedicated Astro camera.

[6bit]

Maybe but a lot of Astro people use Canon (magic lantern probably has a lot to do with it and third party supplies).

 

I’m not a fan of Leica’s LENR support and I don’t use my M10 for shots more than a few seconds anymore. I just use a different brand and go on about it.

[pkwok]

Agree with Jaapv that Astrophoto needs some special attention.

 

Generally, there are 2 main streams here. One is just to take photos of Milky Way, Great and Small Magellan Nebulae, etc. One can usually use a consumer level camera of Nikon, Canon, Sony etc and take good photos in 30 seconds exposure. LENR here is acceptable for 1 photos. However, if one wants to do a time lapse or star trails, LENR is definitely a no-no, the gap will be too big and waiting time is twice.

 

The other stream is more dedicated deep sky astrophoto. A common set of gear is to use modified Canon, use some deep sky filter (pollution reduction, H-alpha filter, etc), take multiple images and stack the photos in software (such as the free Deep Sky Stacker). We need to take some dark frames (usually at least 15 exposure of same length) and some bias frames etc, feed into the DSS software, for reduction of sensor noises. LENR is not necessary here, and need to be turned off.

 

I don't think Leica is suitable for such purpose if LENR cannot be turned off.

[jmahto]

Agree with Jaapv that Astrophoto needs some special attention.

 

Generally, there are 2 main streams here. One is just to take photos of Milky Way, Great and Small Magellan Nebulae, etc. One can usually use a consumer level camera of Nikon, Canon, Sony etc and take good photos in 30 seconds exposure. LENR here is acceptable for 1 photos. However, if one wants to do a time lapse or star trails, LENR is definitely a no-no, the gap will be too big and waiting time is twice.

 

The other stream is more dedicated deep sky astrophoto. A common set of gear is to use modified Canon, use some deep sky filter (pollution reduction, H-alpha filter, etc), take multiple images and stack the photos in software (such as the free Deep Sky Stacker). We need to take some dark frames (usually at least 15 exposure of same length) and some bias frames etc, feed into the DSS software, for reduction of sensor noises. LENR is not necessary here, and need to be turned off.

 

I don't think Leica is suitable for such purpose if LENR cannot be turned off.

I do start trails with 30sec frames plus 30sec gap and gaps are not visible (at viewing distance) in stacked picture. No one should pixel peep a star trail picture. Edited July 2, 2018 by jmahto

[jaapv]

Agree with Jaapv that Astrophoto needs some special attention.

 

Generally, there are 2 main streams here. One is just to take photos of Milky Way, Great and Small Magellan Nebulae, etc. One can usually use a consumer level camera of Nikon, Canon, Sony etc and take good photos in 30 seconds exposure. LENR here is acceptable for 1 photos. However, if one wants to do a time lapse or star trails, LENR is definitely a no-no, the gap will be too big and waiting time is twice.

 

The other stream is more dedicated deep sky astrophoto. A common set of gear is to use modified Canon, use some deep sky filter (pollution reduction, H-alpha filter, etc), take multiple images and stack the photos in software (such as the free Deep Sky Stacker). We need to take some dark frames (usually at least 15 exposure of same length) and some bias frames etc, feed into the DSS software, for reduction of sensor noises. LENR is not necessary here, and need to be turned off.

 

I don't think Leica is suitable for such purpose if LENR cannot be turned off.

I don't think Leica would ever claim that they designed their cameras for this use.

[su25]

Based on what I saw, I rather wish I could have turned it on at 1 sec...

If "hot pixels" appear at 1s exposure, then Leica should have LENR for 1s exposure too.

However, I am wondering whether it is indeed "hot pixels" or luminance noise due to under exposure at 1s (instead of 2s).

I find it rather strange that Leica would have ignored this, knowing that LENR is an inherent feature of all Leica cameras.

If that is the case, then they should make LENR selectable by the user .

[wjdrijfhout]

That I think is the biggest frustration people (myself included) have: why can’t we as a user just turn it on or off? It’s that simple.

 

Or if we would have heard a plausible explanation from Leica why it has to stay on, other than ‘to get best image quality’, I could certainly live with that.

 

Until then, it remains not a big deal, but frustrating nevertheless.

 

I do the specialized astrophotography jaapv is talking about, and have a specialized camera for that. Totally agree. But when traveling and being in places with real dark sky, I would love to be able to bring a small skytracker and photograph some reasonably bright deep sky objects using my 90-280 and SL/TL2. I’m not going to bring a separate Canon set or dedicated Telescope for that purpose. The only thing needed is a menu-Item: LENR: on/off.