Leica CM / ML?/ New Leica Mirrorless Announcement

[NZDavid]

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I haven't had time to read through all this thread, but it surely proves to Leica that there's still a very loyal if sometimes fractious band of supporters. Companies value brand loyalty, or should do. Whether every one of those would turn out to be buyers is another matter. The debate at least gives an insight into what people want.

 

As for the new compact Leica, it looks very good for its type, and the video promotion is also very well done. Hint, it's all about the pictures.

[Guest]

So this is where that fictitious thread in.............Chi Loon have a silver M10 waiting for me on the 25th June :) 

[IkarusJohn]

...

Leica started giving away the M-L adapter. No surprise I believe. Leica at all costs wants to avoid that even more people like fcracer start shooting M-lenses on a Sony. They are terrified of that. It threatens their very existence.

...

 

Really? Terrified? Do you have a source for this? The reason I ask is that Leica seems very confident that only their sensors work with the M lenses (across the board). Apart from Zeiss & Vöigtländer, no one seems to be making M mount lenses - and look how few of those lenses there are as a percentage of total offerings.

 

I doubt that Leica makes cameras based on Sony owners using M lenses. They seem very confident that M lens owners will revert to M cameras or Leica’s own universal platform, the SL.

Edited June 16, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[Guest VVJ]

Apart from Zeiss & Vöigtländer, no one seems to be making M mount lenses - and look how few of those lenses there are as a percentage of total offerings.

 

And what is your source for that if I may ask?  I have 10 M-mount and screw mount lenses.  Of those only one is Leica... Also, what is your source for saying that the SL supports those better than Sony?

[lct]

Dunno how many photogs use Kolari mod Sonys actually but there won't be any real danger for Leica as long as Sony does not sell a thin sensor stack body the same way as Nikon did with the D800e IMHO. Touch wood...

[jaapv]

I think neither Leica nor Sony regard the other as serious competition.

[Guest]

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I think neither Leica nor Sony regard the other as serious competition.

Jaapv

Have you ever tried a Sony A7xxxx.

Absolute nightmare menu system and the EVF is garbage.......... I certainly don’t think Leica care to much about Sony

 

Neil

[hoppyman]

Good luck with that when Leica has provided $15k manual watch as a perfect target for poking fun.

I think you missed the point of my post entirely and you only part quoted me of course.  The tiny run (someone said 400???) of luxury watches branded Leica doesn't interest me at all personally.  I don't think its credible that those would take any resources from camera or lens development? It's luxury brand profile promotion? My comment was that Leica Camera made no promise about this hypothetical CM at all. All of the speculation was generated entirely by posts on that rumour site (which sometimes seems to get it right and sometimes like here is completely wrong). Whether or not rumours are positive or negative for Leica I don't know. This one is just entirely fabrication and speculation not a leak of course.

That ought to be worth comment by those disappointed I would have thought

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by hoppyman

[jonatdonuts]

I don't think we can completely absolve Leica's marketing / communications team on this one. 

 

The L mount has great potential; held back only by its relatively sparse range of lenses. I think a lot of early adopters bought into the L systems with the hope that Leica would soon release an army of stellar lenses, which is after all one of the primary reasons why we fell in love with Leica in the first place. I suspect there are also a fair number of other photographers looking to invest in one of those systems once they see the lenses they want and need. 

 

The Luminous Landscape interview which showed Leica teasing the expanding L-mount potential on the 14th June 2018 appears to have raised a lot of people's aspirations: finally, an expanded range of lenses and / or more compact FF body were going to be delivered. The CM rumours certainly didn't help and confused the situation further, but the reference to the L-mount was clear to all. 

 

What we got was an L-watch.

 

I very much appreciate Leica's vision, direction, and how it has handled the M line up to the excellent M10 (special editions aside). And the Q is marvellous. But serious questions need to be asked of its marketing / communications team. It seems unnecessary to build up people's hopes only to bring them down, especially for the early adopters. And this isn't the first time that marketing has done this, with the 'mini-M' farce, the canon/sofort incident, and the ambiguous announcement of the Leica + Huawei 'co-design' partnership. Although that partnership is now proving to be very successful with Huawei nailing down excellent phones - political controversy aside. 

 

Whether you agree with this or not, there is still much work to be done with the L mount system. A new camera body may not be necessary at this time, but new lenses are certainly a must, particularly for the APSC line. 

 

 

I think you missed the point of my post entirely and you only part quoted me of course.  The tiny run (someone said 400???) of luxury watches branded Leica doesn't interest me at all personally.  I don't think its credible that those would take any resources from camera or lens development? It's luxury brand profile promotion? My comment was that Leica Camera made no promise about this hypothetical CM at all. All of the speculation was generated entirely by posts on that rumour site (which sometimes seems to get it right and sometimes like here is completely wrong). Whether or not rumours are positive or negative for Leica I don't know. This one is just entirely fabrication and speculation not a leak of course.

That ought to be worth comment by those disappointed I would have thought


 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[mdemeyer]

As the Michael who started the original thin filter mod with Kolari, I can say with certainty that using (almost all) RF lenses in the 35mm and below focal length yields technically poor results from the thick filter stack. Of this there is no technical question. Whether a given photographer cares on a given image is another question.

 

https://kolarivision.com/product/sony-a7-series-thin-filter-legacy-lens-upgrade/

 

And what is your source for that if I may ask? I have 10 M-mount and screw mount lenses. Of those only one is Leica... Also, what is your source for saying that the SL supports those better than Sony?

[IkarusJohn]

And what is your source for that if I may ask?  I have 10 M-mount and screw mount lenses.  Of those only one is Leica... Also, what is your source for saying that the SL supports those better than Sony?

My own experience (having owned two Sonys, an SL and a number of M cameras.

 

But I guess the biggest difference is I’m not putting words into Leica’s mouth. This is not a personal comment, but an idea bservation that this entire thread, while at times entertaining, is based on not thing at all.

[IkarusJohn]

Photokina next ...

[jaapv]

Good for Forum traffic again

 

People may not have noticed, but Leica is doing fewer major announcements at Photokina over the last years.

Of course, they have to do something, but I get the impression that they see it more as an opportunity to present the brand experience than a platform for announcing revolutionary new products.  And if they do, the product is often not ready for full production yet, generating long waiting times. 

Remember the last one? The introduction of the  revolutionary Sofort?

 

However, the excellent photo exhibitions they stage are another matter, and highly recommended. In general the Leica hall is an oasis of peace and reflection on photography compared to the frenetic marketing activity elsewhere in the Photokina.

[MarkP]

I think it was completely appropriate for Leica to remain silent and to ‘neither confirm or deny’ internet rumours. Otherwise, where does it end? Hopefully, after the mini-M debacle of a few years ago they are now more circumspect.

[jaapv]

I think a lot of early adopters bought into the L systems with the hope that Leica would soon release an army of stellar lenses,

Are you sure you  are talking about Leica?

Time runs on a different scale in Wetzlar. Stellar: yes. Army and soon: wishful thinking. It got them where they are now, however.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Jaapv

Have you ever tried a Sony A7xxxx.

Absolute nightmare menu system and the EVF is garbage.......... I certainly don’t think Leica care to much about Sony

 

Neil

 

 

The Sony A7 series are 'Marmite' cameras amongst Leica Forum members. I have no complaints about my A7SII used with mainly Leica R series lenses. Set up for Aperture priority it's just as easy to use as my SL  - and the A7SII's low light capability is exemplary. Furthermore when used with a Leica R 19mm Mk II there is no 'image edge' fuzziness. Wide angle Leica R series lenses do not produce the edge fuzziness of their M counterparts when used on Sony mirrorless cameras … including the A6000 series. As for 'Absolute nightmare menu system' … that's gross exaggeration and likely more 'contagious anti-Sony diatribe' … as is the 'EVF is garbage' comment. The EVFs are pretty good and very usable. 

 

dunk 

[Guest]

The Sony A7 series are 'Marmite' cameras amongst Leica Forum members. I have no complaints about my A7SII used with mainly Leica R series lenses. Set up for Aperture priority it's just as easy to use as my SL - and the A7SII's low light capability is exemplary. Furthermore when used with a Leica R 19mm Mk II there is no 'image edge' fuzziness. Wide angle Leica R series lenses do not produce the edge fuzziness of their M counterparts when used on Sony mirrorless cameras … including the A6000 series. As for 'Absolute nightmare menu system' … that's gross exaggeration and likely more 'contagious anti-Sony diatribe' … as is the 'EVF is garbage' comment. The EVFs are pretty good and very usable.

 

dunk

Dunk is Stick with my statement ........ by adding IMOO the Sony A7xx menu is a absolute nightmare and the EVF is garbage.......... that’s my personal experience with the SonyA7 as a former user

Neil

[Keith_W]

It's not just the menu and the EVF. Try shooting the A7 series in manual. You will find that controlling the four basic settings is a nightmare: 

 

- Aperture: Some lenses have aperture rings, some don't. Of those that DO have aperture rings, you engage automatic aperture by moving the ring to A. I had my A7 camera configured so that the front dial controlled the aperture. On some lenses I would forget that I had to turn the aperture ring, so I would turn the dial only for NOTHING to happen. It would take a moment of confusion before I realized that I had to turn the ring. 

 

- Shutter speed: I configured mine so that the rear dial controlled shutter speed. But if you are like me, and you permanently turn the rear LCD off to save battery (except for image preview), the only way to see the shutter speed is to look through the EVF. Not like a Leica where at a glance you see every setting that you've set without having to turn the camera on. 

 

- ISO: press a button, turn a dial. It would be so much better if you could just ... turn the dial. But no, instead of a dedicated dial for ISO, you get a dial for exposure compensation instead. Exposure compensation is for those who don't know how to expose and want to rely on automation. It's only there for people who have realized their exposure is off after they have fired a frame. If I am faced with a difficult exposure, my preference is to switch to manual exposure rather than dial in exposure comp and hope the camera has the same opinion about the exposure the second time round. 

 

- Focus: The biggest nightmare of all. The camera bodies have an AF/manual setting. The biggest selling point, eye-AF, has no direct button. Instead it has to be mapped to one of the custom buttons. Quite often at the heat of the moment I would push the wrong button for eye-AF and get something else instead! If you want to focus manually, you set the switch on the camera to manual. Then you have to set your lens to manual. On some lenses, this is a switch. On some others, it's a push clutch. Pull to engage manual focus, push for AF. The setting on both the lens and camera have to be the same, otherwise AF or MF won't work. This is just stupid design, they had the opportunity to standardize the design across their range of lenses, and they didn't. On a Canon, if you want MF, you just turn the focus ring (full time manual over-ride). Not so on a Sony. 

 

Sony cameras were designed for automation, and designed for people who like to leave decision making to their cameras. There is much to admire about the Sony system, but for someone like me, who still desires manual control, it was a nightmare. It was by far the worst camera I have ever used, and that is despite all its advantages. I could not get rid of it fast enough. 

[lct]

You may wish to use your Sony with M lenses. Just for the record: Apertures (as usual on lenses), Shutter speeds (rear dial under the thumb), ISO (C2 button under the thumb), Focus magnification (C1 button under the index finger). More Leica than Leica .

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[jaapv]

Really? All those buttons. Like a church organ