Leica CM / ML?/ New Leica Mirrorless Announcement

[johnwolf]

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Am I the only one who now finds Leica's various offerings very confusing? To be further complicated by yet another body.

 

Perhaps it's because I don't have the money to spend on a CL, CM, SL, S, T, TL2, Q or anything else, but if I did, I might worry that all these different cameras show a scatter-gun approach to camera development.

 

I know that some of them have the same lens mount, but for the life of me I couldn't tell you which ones and whether the lenses work properly on more than one body.

 

You know where you are with an M.

 

I'm with you, Andy. Most camera companies offer a set of core products and continue enhancing and improving them. Maybe Leica has a grand plan, but this continued stream of new products and significant permutations (and abandonment of others) suggests to me a lack of vision. And it must be an expensive approach to product development. Then again, I assume they're smart people and must have a long-range plan. It's just not very evident to me.  

 

John  

Edited May 30, 2018 by johnwolf

[jonoslack]

Which would be  a logical step. The miniaturization of the M10 can well be applied to the SL. Add Q/CL styling and upgrade the sensor and you are basically done.

Next problem: what about these huge SL lenses?  A couple of Summicron-L lenses? Even Elmarit-L?

We already have the Summicron L lenses Jaap (at least the first couple). They would balance extremely badly on a Q sized body. No other manufacturer has managed to make good quality AF Full frame lenses which are small (for good reason). I can’t see Leica dropping the quality to make smaller lenses, and I can’t see why they would damage the sales of the M by bringing out such a camera.

 

I know nothing (really - which is why I can talk) but this seems like a very unlikely rumour to me. I know that if it were really possible then it would sell like hot cakes (with small AF lenses) . . . . But Magic is magic!

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[jonoslack]

Neither do i. What was said at the launch of the SL is that it is designed for L lenses and adapted for M ones if memory serves. Main result being that corners are generally softer on the SL than on M cameras, at fast apertures at least. I have no experience with the SL though, for this very reason besides the bulk of the camera and the lack of auto zoom with M lenses, but Sean Read did interesting comparos on his site if i remember well.

Hi There

Sean and I talked about this quite a lot at the time. I don’t know whether the SL sensor has the modified micro lenses or not - but it does have a relatively thin cover glass - most of the more modern lenses (like the wide summiluxes for instance) work pretty much the same on the M10 and the SL (actually the 28 ‘lux is one of the lenses which is slightly better on the SL). Sean reckons that the real issue is the thickness of the cover glass (hence the Kolari mods on Sony cameras which seem to solve most of the issues).

 

At any rate there are only a few lenses where there is any noticeable disadvantage on the SL (in real life)

[jonoslack]

And where is Jono?  Testing or just keeping quiet...

Sorry - just arrived (not concentrating).

Sounds like a load of old baloney to me (I guess it will improve the Leica Rumor traffic). Of course, it would be lovely, but it hinges around small, M quality, AF, L mount lenses . . . . . . Which seems to me to amount to ‘magic’ . . And we all know about magic .

 

Nobody else can make them, so why should Leica be able to? Or want to when they would simply cut off sales of the M lenses?

 

You will have inferred from this that I know nothing (or I couldn’t say anything) - but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening, just that I don’t know anything!

[pico]

[...]

If it were the camera we all wanted..it would take sales from the other lines..

 

"If You Don't Cannibalize Yourself, Someone Else Will" - Steve Jobs

Edited May 30, 2018 by pico

[Jeff S]

I don’t know, Jono. Hasselblad has managed to make (well, Nittoh) high quality AF lenses (XCD) covering an even bigger format, but smaller than SL lenses. They are slower, and the eventual 35-75 zoom will have a narrower range, but the result is more compactness. Not M size, for sure, but it seems designers can still make trade offs.

 

Jeff

Edited May 30, 2018 by Jeff S

[lct]

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My Nikon lenses are AF and not huge at all.

 

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[earleygallery]

I'm with you, Andy. Most camera companies offer a set of core products and continue enhancing and improving them. Maybe Leica has a grand plan, but this continued stream of new products and significant permutations (and abandonment of others) suggests to me a lack of vision. And it must be an expensive approach to product development. Then again, I assume they're smart people and must have a long-range plan. It's just not very evident to me.  

 

John  

 

As I mentioned it's like there's different silo's of design team for each new product, rather than a 'house style' if you like. Look at Canon - pick up a cheap P&S, an APSC model or a top spec FF and you'll find similar controls and menu's.

 

The other aspect, which I think is still a massive issue for Leica's bottom line, is quality control. If they stuck to tried and tested solutions they wouldn't have to manage silly but costly issues like loose strap lugs, broken battery covers or peeling covers. Sure there will always be the odd problem but Leica seem to have been plagued by costly 'recall' issues in recent years, and constant new design ideas can't help.

[lct]

+1 about QC but i'm not sure the CL would be designed the way it is if the job had been done by M designers. I may be wrong though as i have not the least idea about whom is in charge of camera design at Leica.

[tsleica]

Maybe they will just put the CL into a magic growth hormone machine..stop the growth right at FF..and box it up..for 20% more..

[Exodies]

As I mentioned it's like there's different silo's of design team for each new product, rather than a 'house style' if you like. Look at Canon - pick up a cheap P&S, an APSC model or a top spec FF and you'll find similar controls and menu's.

 

The other aspect, which I think is still a massive issue for Leica's bottom line, is quality control. If they stuck to tried and tested solutions they wouldn't have to manage silly but costly issues like loose strap lugs, broken battery covers or peeling covers. Sure there will always be the odd problem but Leica seem to have been plagued by costly 'recall' issues in recent years, and constant new design ideas can't help.

This shows most clearly in lens cap and hood. Why aren’t they evolving to a perfect design? It’s as though someone throws a dart into the design space and manufacturing attempts whatever it lands on.

[Peter H]

Despite having spent decades with a variety of M cameras attached to my body, I'm no longer convinced that M cameras and lenses can justify their price differential compared with such marvellous cameras as Fuji's best.

 

I know, however, that it's not all about the photographs, but as I get older, the photos matter more and more to me, and the disposable bodies less so. So Leica need to produce something very special to persuade me to stay loyal. I'm teetering.

[hmathias]

Quality Lenses:

 

1. Max Aperture 

2. Focal Length (or zoom range)

 

3. Image Quality

4. AF - IS - Auto Exposure

5. Size and Weight 

 

Pick any 4 and the 5th comes at a steep price.

 

No one builds small, fast high quality lenses like Leica and they have for years. 

 

I have used all major brands of lenses, no other lenses come close.

[bags27]

Pick any 4 and the 5th comes at a steep price.

 

right: as we used to say in ultra long distance cycling about buying bikes: comfort, speed, handling: pick two.

[hmathias]

Pick any 4 and the 5th comes at a steep price.

 

right: as we used to say in ultra long distance cycling about buying bikes: comfort, speed, handling: pick two.

 

 

Or in film production: Fast — Cheap — Good 

 

Pick any two.

[IkarusJohn]

... If it were the camera we all wanted..it would take sales from the other lines..

If Leica sells a camera people want, in preference for one that people want less, where’s the problem?

[MarkP]

Or, whilst we’re at it: armour, firepower, speed for warships

Edited May 30, 2018 by MarkP

[Peter H]

Or in film production: Fast — Cheap — Good 

 

Pick any two.

Whilst there’s truth in this, you shouldn’t let it fool you into believing that more expensive always means better.

[hmathias]

Whilst there’s truth in this, you shouldn’t let it fool you into believing that more expensive always means better.

 

 

Oh I don't make that mistake, Better lens performance means more consistent image quality, and high cost means that Leica can afford to toss the lenses that don't pass their stringent QC testing.

 

The reason that lenses made to high tolerance engineering standards are better, is that they destroy (remelt) the lenses that don't don't pass QC. I have seen barrels of substandard glass on the floor of German lens testing labs. I asked for one or two and use them as paperweights on my desk. We pay for what they reject.

 

And (unlike other "nameless" lens manufacturers) Leica never molds plastic aspheric lenses. 

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[onasj]

As some outstanding non-Leica lenses have already demonstrated, it is possible for a full-frame lens to offer outstanding optical quality, relatively wide aperture, autofocus, and compact size.

Consider the Sony FE 55/1.8 Zeiss:

- Ultra sharp wide open, quite comparable in sharpness to the 50 APO in fact (I have tested both on the a7rIII side by side)

- 0.50-meter MFD (20 cm shorter than that of most Leica 50 mm lenses)

- 64 mm diameter (1.1 cm fatter than the 50 lux-M)

- 71 mm length (1.7 cm longer than the 50 lux-M)

- 281 grams (54 grams lighter than the 50 lux-M)

- Excellent AF performance (much better AF than that of the 50 lux-M   )

 

I have faith that Leica's lens engineers are up to the task of making AF lenses that perform at least as well as this Sony gem, in a comparable or even smaller package, over the next 24 months.

 

If indeed the new CM is a compact M-like camera with an L mount and an amazing (SL-esque) EVF, and a sensor that is superior to that of the M10 (which is already decent), then I will be first in line to buy one.  Best of all, we would continue to use our treasured M lenses on the CM.  Heck, we would presumably even be able to use our CL lenses on the CM (with cropping).