jaapv Posted June 16, 2018 Share #461 Posted June 16, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) I’m so disappointed in this announcement. I’m relatively new to Leica. The M10 is my first Leica and I wrongly expected quicker innovation in cameras and lenses than Leica is able to deliver. I don’t understand the watch move unless they keep volume limited to keep demand high or there is something so intriguing about the watch that it brings traffic into the Leica boutique stores. The good news with the lack of an announcement is that this makes the decision between the upcoming Fuji GFXR50 and the rumored CM easy! If you just got an M10 I cannot understand why you would want to spend your money so quickly on another camera system. There i so much to discover in the M system. There is not one photographer in the world who can exhaust the photographic possibilities and qualities of the M system within decades, let alone a year at most. Buy a new lens and explore the creative possibilities of that one. Much more satisfying. Leica is not about fast update cycles, planned obsolescence and pushing the market by fake "improvements" and marketing tricks. Leica means gradual evolution, based on real photographic improvements as they become available and are applicable to their photographic concept, and retrocompatability. That is a completely different world from Canikosony. No frenetic pushing the customer to the next bright shiny thing. They gather their silly money with luxury high-end collector's items and status bling editions. An overpriced, but undoubtedly well-made watch fits perfectly into that strategy. In the meantime they will keep working on meaningful additions to their regular camera and lens palette and announce them when and how they see fit. The flip side of this is that there is the occasional miscalculation and stupid marketing, The often-mentioned X-Vario is a prime example. Objectively it is a fantastic camera and it deserved the same kind of success as the Q enjoys, However, the attempt to hype the market at the introduction through the internet failed miserably, effectively killing the it at introduction. The main mistake was aiming the hype at the rather conservative and knowledgeable M customer group. They would not fall for the linking of zoom point-and-shoot to their beloved rangefinder system. Come to think of it, the CL might have survived such marketing, especially if they had made the L-M adapter part of a package. But they did't repeat the error. Leica wisely avoided the trap this time around. The hype came from outside sources, making them fall flat on their faces. I'm sure something is in the pipeline. But Leica will announce it when they feel it is ready to be released. Not before, not after. And in the way they choose - viral marketing though Internet teasers, like the M240, or a total surprise like the Monochrom, who knows? Maybe Leica wanted to make a point and prove to the world that a rumours site provides errr... rumours and is not the the official voice of Leica. If you are a professional photographer and need a different camera for a different job, you know what you need to buy, it does not make sense to rely on rumourware. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Leica CM / ML?/ New Leica Mirrorless Announcement. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
elgenper Posted June 16, 2018 Share #462 Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) Disappointed? OK, it depends on one´s expectations, of course. But the overblown anticipation, as demonstrated by this thread, is hardly Leica´s fault (they must be very unamused in Wetzlar...). We got something after all: a decent pocketable travel camera (for those who need lots of zoom), and some rather meaningless blingware besides. For myself, I´ll happily go on using my 8 yo M9; just as good today as it was when I eagerly unwrapped it in February 2010 (plus my Monochrom 1 when it returns with a new sensor...). But disappointed? Not a bit! Edited June 16, 2018 by elgenper 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2018 Share #463 Posted June 16, 2018 Still, it was fun to indulge in speculation, Per. And it must have given Wetzlar quite a bit of insight into the wishes and expectations of their customers. Unamused? They could have issued a flat denial - but they didn't. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted June 16, 2018 Share #464 Posted June 16, 2018 I think, if you look back to Jono's brief contributions to this 24pp (!) thread, that a smaller SL with L mount and EVF, did not add up, except as a means of fitting M lenses with an adapter and focusing live rather than with the rangefinder – enlarged centre portion and all that…. The SL lenses are so huge that they wouldn't offer weight-saving benefits over the simple M10 (et al) + M lenses option. (I understand that fitting smaller TL lenses on FF don't give full 24MB images but I may be wrong here.) And rangefinder focus is so quick anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2018 Share #465 Posted June 16, 2018 Nor does an M-mount EVF camera make (commercial) sense. But trust Leica to come up with something at one point of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeuBu Posted June 16, 2018 Share #466 Posted June 16, 2018 I’m so disappointed in this announcement. I’m relatively new to Leica. The M10 is my first Leica and I wrongly expected quicker innovation in cameras and lenses than Leica is able to deliver. I don’t understand the watch move unless they keep volume limited to keep demand high or there is something so intriguing about the watch that it brings traffic into the Leica boutique stores. The good news with the lack of an announcement is that this makes the decision between the upcoming Fuji GFXR50 and the rumored CM easy! +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 16, 2018 Share #467 Posted June 16, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yep, particularly also as ties, bow ties are known as bacteria paradises. As are all clothes … Travel by crowded London tube trains in the rush hours to maintain your healthy microbiome dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcracer Posted June 16, 2018 Share #468 Posted June 16, 2018 If you just got an M10 I cannot understand why you would want to spend your money so quickly on another camera system. There i so much to discover in the M system. There is not one photographer in the world who can exhaust the photographic possibilities and qualities of the M system within decades, let alone a year at most. Buy a new lens and explore the creative possibilities of that one. Much more satisfying. Leica is not about fast update cycles, planned obsolescence and pushing the market by fake "improvements" and marketing tricks. Leica means gradual evolution, based on real photographic improvements as they become available and are applicable to their photographic concept, and retrocompatability. That is a completely different world from Canikosony. No frenetic pushing the customer to the next bright shiny thing. They gather their silly money with luxury high-end collector's items and status bling editions. An overpriced, but undoubtedly well-made watch fits perfectly into that strategy. In the meantime they will keep working on meaningful additions to their regular camera and lens palette and announce them when and how they see fit. The flip side of this is that there is the occasional miscalculation and stupid marketing, The often-mentioned X-Vario is a prime example. Objectively it is a fantastic camera and it deserved the same kind of success as the Q enjoys, However, the attempt to hype the market at the introduction through the internet failed miserably, effectively killing the it at introduction. The main mistake was aiming the hype at the rather conservative and knowledgeable M customer group. They would not fall for the linking of zoom point-and-shoot to their beloved rangefinder system. Come to think of it, the CL might have survived such marketing, especially if they had made the L-M adapter part of a package. But they did't repeat the error. Leica wisely avoided this trap this time around. The hype came from outside sources, making them fall flat on their faces. I'm sure something is in the pipeline. But Leica will announce it when they feel it is ready to be released. Not before, not after. And in the way they choose - viral marketing though Internet teasers, like the M240, or a total surprise like the Monochrom, who knows? Maybe Leica wanted to make a point and prove to the world that a rumours site provides errr... rumours and is not the the official voice of Leica. If you are a professional photographer and need a different camera for a different job, you know what you need to buy, it does not make sense to rely on rumourware. You make many good points, however I do want to point out that I didn't say that I have exhausted the capabilities of the M10; I doubt I ever could given I'm not a professional photographer. I want a camera that is easy to nail focus when I'm travelling in the heat of the moment at wide apertures. I can get there 90% of the time with the M10, but when I compare the outcome to what I can do with an A7R3 + Leica lenses, I feel disappointed that I don't have an option to do that with a small FF EVF Leica body. Quite frankly, I would be satisfied with an updated Visoflex (something smaller with better refresh rate, and an electronic first curtain option to make the process a bit more enjoyable). Anyhow, I'm a new Leica fan and an insignificant one at that (I only have the M10 + 35 FLE Summilux + 35 Pre-Asph from Leica, the rest of the lenses are from Voigtlander). Perhaps I'll take another look at the SL, or just wait for GFX50R. When you've grown up with an EVF, it's hard to adapt to the RF in those situations when you only have one chance to get the shot. I recently created a travel photo site and have used the Leica all over the world: www.fcracer.com 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted June 16, 2018 Share #469 Posted June 16, 2018 Great photos on your travel photo site. Thanks for sharing. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted June 16, 2018 Share #470 Posted June 16, 2018 I recently created a travel photo site and have used the Leica all over the world: www.fcracer.com Excellent shots! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 16, 2018 Share #471 Posted June 16, 2018 You make many good points, however I do want to point out that I didn't say that I have exhausted the capabilities of the M10; I doubt I ever could given I'm not a professional photographer. I want a camera that is easy to nail focus when I'm travelling in the heat of the moment at wide apertures. I can get there 90% of the time with the M10, but when I compare the outcome to what I can do with an A7R3 + Leica lenses, I feel disappointed that I don't have an option to do that with a small FF EVF Leica body. I would say, instead of fretting about what new camera may or may not be available, you should concentrate on perfecting your technique. No reason that you shouldn't be able to improve on that 90%. If not then perhaps you made the wrong choice of camera in the first place. Again, no need to get frustrated that Leica haven't pandered to your needs when there's plenty of other options out there already for fast autofocus cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted June 16, 2018 Share #472 Posted June 16, 2018 "Concentrate on perfecting your technique." That sound like bloody hard work. Reply could have been couched in friendlier terms. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2018 Share #473 Posted June 16, 2018 You make many good points, however I do want to point out that I didn't say that I have exhausted the capabilities of the M10; I doubt I ever could given I'm not a professional photographer. I want a camera that is easy to nail focus when I'm travelling in the heat of the moment at wide apertures. I can get there 90% of the time with the M10, but when I compare the outcome to what I can do with an A7R3 + Leica lenses, I feel disappointed that I don't have an option to do that with a small FF EVF Leica body. Quite frankly, I would be satisfied with an updated Visoflex (something smaller with better refresh rate, and an electronic first curtain option to make the process a bit more enjoyable). Anyhow, I'm a new Leica fan and an insignificant one at that (I only have the M10 + 35 FLE Summilux + 35 Pre-Asph from Leica, the rest of the lenses are from Voigtlander). Perhaps I'll take another look at the SL, or just wait for GFX50R. When you've grown up with an EVF, it's hard to adapt to the RF in those situations when you only have one chance to get the shot. I recently created a travel photo site and have used the Leica all over the world: www.fcracer.com As somebody who does travel photography himself, I even did a couple of little articles on the subject: https://the.me/die-leica-in-der-hand-the-monochrom-goes-into-the-snow/ https://the.me/henri-in-africa-the-leica-monochrom-as-a-travel-camera/ I would urge you to take a look at the CL; compact, excellent IQ, even compared to SL and M10 -better DR than both!-, a lens range aimed at travel subjects, integrates seamlessly with M lenses, superior EVF and relatively affordable. It makes the full-frame argument a bit obsolete. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted June 16, 2018 Share #474 Posted June 16, 2018 I think, if you look back to Jono's brief contributions to this 24pp (!) thread, that a smaller SL with L mount and EVF, did not add up, except as a means of fitting M lenses with an adapter and focusing live rather than with the rangefinder That in itself is a key thing though. The Sony A7iii does offer such a smaller and lighter body at 1/3rd of the cost of the SL and with stabilization. Leica started giving away the M-L adapter. No surprise I believe. Leica at all costs wants to avoid that even more people like fcracer start shooting M-lenses on a Sony. They are terrified of that. It threatens their very existence. I am sure the rumored body is coming hopefully accompanied by a few smaller lighter and smaller lenses. Steve Jobs was rightfully quoted earlier in this thread: If you don't cannibalize yourself, somebody else will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 16, 2018 Share #475 Posted June 16, 2018 That in itself is a key thing though. The Sony A7iii does offer such a smaller and lighter body at 1/3rd of the cost of the SL and with stabilization. Leica started giving away the M-L adapter. No surprise I believe. Leica at all costs wants to avoid that even more people like fcracer start shooting M-lenses on a Sony. They are terrified of that. It threatens their very existence. I am sure the rumored body is coming hopefully accompanied by a few smaller lighter and smaller lenses. Steve Jobs was rightfully quoted earlier in this thread: If you don't cannibalize yourself, somebody else will. But not so good when using wide angle M lenses: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/285080-leica-cm-ml-new-leica-mirrorless-announcement/?p=3529047 dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted June 16, 2018 Share #476 Posted June 16, 2018 But not so good when using wide angle M lenses: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/285080-leica-cm-ml-new-leica-mirrorless-announcement/?p=3529047 dunk I have no doubt that Leica supports Leica lenses better than Sony but the reality is that for a lot of people that might not matter too much... From Macfilos: "Nearer to home, I have been hearing from friends in the Leica world who have done the unthinkable and bought a Sony as an adjunct to their M digitals, as a means of getting even more value from their (often) sizeable stock of M glass. They see the Sony as a mini SL with many advantages over the Leica SL not least of which is the low price and the in-body image stabilisation. As a second body to an M10, the Sony can make a lot of sense, even though it might not be as convenient to use with M lenses as the SL." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted June 16, 2018 Share #477 Posted June 16, 2018 Well, June is not over yet, people. Is still possible something is coming. In the meantime, where is the monochrome M10? I would expect that about now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgdinamo Posted June 16, 2018 Share #478 Posted June 16, 2018 You make many good points, however I do want to point out that I didn't say that I have exhausted the capabilities of the M10; I doubt I ever could given I'm not a professional photographer. I want a camera that is easy to nail focus when I'm travelling in the heat of the moment at wide apertures. I can get there 90% of the time with the M10, but when I compare the outcome to what I can do with an A7R3 + Leica lenses, I feel disappointed that I don't have an option to do that with a small FF EVF Leica body. I looked at wonderful photos on your site and it seems like the Q could be that perfect second Leica camera for you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_S Posted June 16, 2018 Share #479 Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) I sometimes wish camera manufacturers would for one or two years stop bringing out new models, and instead focus on existing models with firmware updates, sensible accessories, stewardship, customer relations, etc. On the one hand, we ("we" as in a sizable number of photographers) want more reliability, longevity, durability and customer support. One the other hand, we want a better this, better than that, every year - when the technology "required" to make decent images has been here for years now. Sustainability is a big topic, and I wish that would reflect a little in the camera industry too.The very existence of rumor sites itself I find peculiar - and I catch myself look at them too. The expectancy of more seems to exceed the appreciation of the present state of cameras (and that state is pretty impressive). "We" do not like Sonys and Canons - and still measure Leica against them, expecting Leica to do or exceed what these industry giants achieve.I do embrace technology, I will test the SL and look forward to it. But an irritation about a model that does not even exist...There is the Leica SL, Q (two of Leica`s stand-out products, I think), M Monochrom and Fuji`s offerings (I find the GFX50 concept pretty cool); Hasselblad is on a roll and Phase One...all providing an amble choice of stellar camera. As Leica establishes itself more and more as a boutique brand (they have to - thanks to large camera stores and customer behaviour), branching out to scratch the itch with other offerings may not be a bad thing to do, instead of expecting Leica to be something it cannot be and we probably do not want it to be (see the controversies about the "Panaleicas" and X-Vario marketing - so there is that). Have a look at the Leica SL, Fuji GFX50 and Hasselblad X1D. Want it smaller and Leica? Leica CL. Full frame? Any lens optimized to a sensor covers the full frame (I know I know, it is now a generic term for 35 format). Want the benefit of the rendering of a larger sensor? Then get a large sensor, see above. I am not criticizing anyone, I just think this all has gone a little too far.PS - looking at the top images in the gallery, the strong presence of film images is apparent. That is not a note towards film vs digital, but perhaps a sign that our obsession with technology is distracting us from the essences of good photography. Edited June 16, 2018 by Peter_S 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 16, 2018 Share #480 Posted June 16, 2018 The only reason to get excited about another FF L-mount body is that the SL is a bit lacking when it comes to DR at higher ISO. I shot in a low-light church situation on Thursday and I took the α7R III instead of the SL with me. The Sony sensor is just stunning at ISO 2500 whereas DR drops noticeably at ISO 1600 and higher for the Leica. I hated how the Sony handled but the L-mount simply needs a more competitive sensor. My bet is an announcement of a FF body at this year’s Photokina. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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