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Problem with SL firmware update 3.2 - automatic Auto Review, not able to deactivate.

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Re: ECO mode.

 

I'm not sure I understand what issue people have with this. Not only can you turn it off, but it also works very well.

I shot an all-day event last week and the batteries did seem to last longer. The camera also wakes-up instantly now, which it didn't before. It's a significant improvement, as far as I am concerned.

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1. In a single pan you keep your finger pressed down (well at least I do) through and after the pan............................................

 

2. I shoot in situations where I mash the shutter. ...................................................................

 

3. I love most of what mirrorless cameras allow. The one thing I HATE is auto image review. ................................

 

4. It's not the new "feature". It's that Leica have a couple of really really bad habits when it comes to firmware. The first is that they enforce things that should be user configurable (LENR, exposure preview with TTL flash in manual mode) and the second is that they change the behaviour of the camera from firmware to firmware without giving notice and without giving an option to keep the old way. .....................................................................

 

5. Leica makes changes like this, that no one really wanted and no one asked for when there are still real problems in the firmware and PAGES of useful and interesting ideas available that would actually enhance the SL user experience. .............................................

 

6. And lastly, ................................................

 

The Leica SL may be great and the lenses spectacular but I really think Leica wants me to shoot with a Sony......

 

Gordon

 

p.s. And I have tried it. It's on the CL. I didn't know it had flowed over to the SL. It's taken away from my enjoyment of that camera and I have hardly used it (the CL) since the new firmware went live.

1. My misunderstanding - I was thinking of panoramas with multiple shots. 

2. I never had a motor drive so never got into such habits. And even mashing the shutter, I lift the finger after.

4. Agreed

5. I agree with you in these cases, though the moment you mention universal wants and dislikes, the forum erupts with contradictions

 

Your p.s. Yes, I realise it's on the CL, but it was on the M240 that I actually got used to it and welcomed it  - not in the OVF, obviously, but on the rear display. I have auto review turned off, but the M240 (and on the M10??) will show the taken image on the rear screen as long as you keep your finger on the shutter. The same behaviour on the CL and SL just seems natural to me.

 

I'm still happy with this behaviour, though I can see that someone like you with different practices would not.

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I didn't remember that. I'll have to try my M240 and M10 and see how I feel about it on those cameras. For me** M shooting is more methodical and thoughtful. Maybe I'll like it there. The SL is a workhorse for me. 10 shots of a bride walking down the aisle. I need to know where the bride is, not where she was.

 

In studio, I can see how it might be useful. I microsecond where you can see if the eyes are open. Or for photographing for personal projects where speed isn't an issue. I see how some will like it. I don't want to take it away from those that think it's a great addition.

 

I'm NOT saying I wouldn't ever use it if it were available. I'm saying I don't want it as my only option.

 

Does anyone who also has the CL know whether it's got more or less lag? On the CL the shutter press is deeper than the SL and I see it on every shot for a fraction of a second.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

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Sometimes I think it's hard to explain that they avoid mentioning nuanced changes like these. And it's in that tiny fraction of users who experienced it who will see this and would have put it down as a glitch. It's so ephemeral an action. 

 

Btw, if you took your shot and held down the shutter button. You can zoom in on the preview (top dial - but you have to use your middle finger as your trigger finger - which is non-intuitive ) and scroll thru previous images (rear click wheel with your thumb). Scrolling thru previous images to compare immediately can be a convenient action and speedy. But I will have to program it into the lexicon of muscle memory. I'm not sure if I will use it automatically.

 

Gosh, I feel like a guinea pig.

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Nope.

 

It's stupid to make this stuff mandatory. They did it before by changing the way exposure preview works in manual mode. They still haven't fixed the dumb behaviour of exposure preview with a TTL flash. LENR. Leica have a bad habit of making decisions that should be user choices. Too many engineers and not enough photographers.

 

If I turn auto review off (I do) then I want it OFF. Not off except when Leica say it can't be OFF. Not "well we figured you'd want a dynamic model shoot interrupted with a preview" Not, "we'll make it impossible to mash the shutter to get the shot". OFF!!!!!

 

I fully accept some people might like this behaviour. But others don't and Leica are daft for removing or changing existing functionality just because they can. There's stuff that actually needs fixing and instead they waste time making changes like this.

 

Gordon

 

you've nailed the problem exactly. This needs to be an option, not mandatory. If you shoot ANYTHING that moves, the preview after every click of the shutter causes missed key moments. 

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Previous thread mentioned it auto reviews if you hold the shutter. Try press and release quickly or self timer to see if it eliminates what you’re seeing.

 

This is actually true, but it's a terrible feature to be mandatory, you cannot turn it off (if Auto Review is OFF it doesn't affect this full-time Auto Review when holding shutter). Yes, if you hold the shutter it auto reviews and when you release it, it goes back to live view. The problem with it being mandatory is if you are shooting a quick series of shots, even in single shot mode, such as sports, music, weddings -- oftentimes you need to keep the shutter button pressed halfway to hold the AF to capture a quick series of actions that you know will have the same precise focal plane -- you can no longer do this because holding the shutter halfway to hold focus keeps the preview alive in the EVF so you can't see the subsequent movement of the athlete, musician, bride... For a camera positioned to compete in the action market (against Canon 1D's & Nikon D5's) this is a deal killer. 

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Sometimes I think it's hard to explain that they avoid mentioning nuanced changes like these. And it's in that tiny fraction of users who experienced it who will see this and would have put it down as a glitch. It's so ephemeral an action. 

 

Btw, if you took your shot and held down the shutter button. You can zoom in on the preview (top dial - but you have to use your middle finger as your trigger finger - which is non-intuitive ) and scroll thru previous images (rear click wheel with your thumb). Scrolling thru previous images to compare immediately can be a convenient action and speedy. But I will have to program it into the lexicon of muscle memory. I'm not sure if I will use it automatically.

 

Gosh, I feel like a guinea pig.

 

you're right about it not being mentioned in the 3.2 release literature. if you shoot action it's an absolute deal killer. i would never have upgraded had I known about it.

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I didn't remember that. I'll have to try my M240 and M10 and see how I feel about it on those cameras. For me** M shooting is more methodical and thoughtful. Maybe I'll like it there. The SL is a workhorse for me. 10 shots of a bride walking down the aisle. I need to know where the bride is, not where she was.

 

In studio, I can see how it might be useful. I microsecond where you can see if the eyes are open. Or for photographing for personal projects where speed isn't an issue. I see how some will like it. I don't want to take it away from those that think it's a great addition.

 

I'm NOT saying I wouldn't ever use it if it were available. I'm saying I don't want it as my only option.

 

Does anyone who also has the CL know whether it's got more or less lag? On the CL the shutter press is deeper than the SL and I see it on every shot for a fraction of a second.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

you've nailed the problem exactly -- you need to know where the bride IS not where she WAS. the auto review is equivalent to shutter blackout. this may be a useful feature for studio photographers but Leica has crippled action photographers -- this needs to be an optional feature not mandatory please LEICA fix this asap!!

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Thanks for letting us know. What a terrible idea! Sometimes I wonder whether they actually have any photographers at Leica, when the do daft crap like this.

 

I won't be upgrading. This would drive me insane.

 

Gordon

 

whatever you do don't upgrade! i would give anything to go back in time to good old 3.1

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Just installed 3.2 and unpacked the 16-35.

 

Yes, holding the shutter keeps the image onscreen.

 

I will have to get used to this as sometimes I would hold the shutter to control camera shake. Otherwise I don’t see it happening accidentally for me.

 

Good point and yet another reason why some of us keep the shutter button halfway throughout a shooting sequence -- to control camera shake. I shoot moving action (so not on a tripod)  in low low light at slow slow shutter speeds with the 90-280. yes it's an amazing lens with very effective stabilization but every little thing you can do to eliminate camera shake is paramount. I really hope Leica is listening to this!

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Well it's a great idea as far as I am concerned ..... now I can switch 'auto review' to off permanently 

 

Why would you want to keep your finger pressed on the shutter button anyway, except in Continuous Drive Mode .... ? 

 

As to why you would want to keep your finger pressed on the shutter button halfway -- even in single shot? A couple of reasons: 1) if you shoot action (and by action here I mean anything even moving slightly) you don't always need to be in continuous drive, even in single shot mode you need to be ready for the moment, and you may rely on Auto Focus because things can change at the last second and the SL AF is so fast and accurate compared to a human using MF when the heat is on. So shutter button halfway to hold focus, grab a couple of frames with the momentS are right.  2) I commented on this in another thread as well, but you might also want to keep the shutter button pressed halfway in the middle of a series to reduce camera shake. So...This feature just needs to be an option, not mandatory.

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Well, try as I might I actually have to make a really conscious effort to keep the shutter fully depressed after taking an exposure to invoke the 'unwanted review'.

 

On the M9, M240 SL and other Leicas I habitually shoot at well under 1/f shutter speeds ..... I recently shot a whole sequence at night with the SL 75/2 at 1/15 sec and 90% were tack sharp. 

 

The difference between fully depressed and not must be in tenths of a millimetre from what I can see.

 

I've never had the need ...... and after fiddling about today I appear to derive zero benefit from keeping the shutter fully depressed when taking low speed shots. 

 

From what I can see this behaviour with auto review off is 'normal' as far as Leica is concerned. Perhaps 3.2 corrects what Leica consider to be a bug. 

Edited by thighslapper

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I have to agree with Gordon here about this sort of programming from Leica.

 

Gordon, it's not that bad as you may imagine it to be. As you know, the shutter trigger has 2 stage. The soft touch that initiates metering or activating camera and the 2nd stage triggering the shutter.

It's in the triggering shutter stage of when you do not release the tension where the image preview is retained.

You will still need to relax your finger at the 2nd stage before you can trigger another shot in single shot mode.

So when you take the pressure into the metering stage, the preview disappears.

 

It's a refinement I think I like. Keeping your finger fully depressing the button, the image preview appears. Relax it to take another shot, it goes away. Have to say well done Leica! but let us choose and explain succinctly. So we know its a feature and NOT a bug.

 

Thanks, OP, for your accidental discovery. I would be enormously frustrated if I didn't realised whats happening and image freezes start happening at odd unexplained moments. 

 

I'm glad to be reading that it is a feature and not a bug! The key here is that now you have to release the shutter button COMPLETELY to rid the EVF of the previous shot's preview, you cannot keep the shutter button held halfway to hold your AF (or exposure) and I think it is actually "that bad" in real world shooting. The time it takes to release the shutter button fully to get the live view of the scene back, even though it's a fraction of a second, that fraction is still long enough to cause the photographer to miss a surprise game-winning move from an athlete, an impromptu million-dollar expression from a portrait subject, a once-in-a-lifetime wedding moment, I could go on...but I won't :-) I just hope this "refinement" becomes optional. 

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Leica USA is aware of this (when I complained to their regional rep when he was in town a couple weeks ago) and I got the sense that it isn't a "feature." In any event, they relayed it to Germany, where the firmware is written.

 

For me, it's a real embuggerance. After shooting film for 45 years, I have a pretty good idea whether I got the shot right, and even if I didn't the live view that you get just before tripping the shutter does the job. If I wanted to be a chimp I'd eat bananas and throw feces at visitors.

 

What is the best way to get noisy to Leica about this? It's a total deal killer for this particular professional action shooter. thanks for any suggestions :-)

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This is actually true, but it's a terrible feature to be mandatory, you cannot turn it off (if Auto Review is OFF it doesn't affect this full-time Auto Review when holding shutter). Yes, if you hold the shutter it auto reviews and when you release it, it goes back to live view. The problem with it being mandatory is if you are shooting a quick series of shots, even in single shot mode, such as sports, music, weddings -- oftentimes you need to keep the shutter button pressed halfway to hold the AF to capture a quick series of actions that you know will have the same precise focal plane -- you can no longer do this because holding the shutter halfway to hold focus keeps the preview alive in the EVF so you can't see the subsequent movement of the athlete, musician, bride... For a camera positioned to compete in the action market (against Canon 1D's & Nikon D5's) this is a deal killer.

It doesn’t show the review image when you keep the shutter half-pressed. It requires you keep the shutter fully pressed. The scenario you’re referencing with a half press is not impacted.

 

Also I use back button AF, the same as I did with my Nikons so I would not need to keep the shutter half pressed to maintain AF.

 

Try it out, I think most here are over reacting without trying it.

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It doesn’t show the review image when you keep the shutter half-pressed. It requires you keep the shutter fully pressed. The scenario you’re referencing with a half press is not impacted.

 

Also I use back button AF, the same as I did with my Nikons so I would not need to keep the shutter half pressed to maintain AF.

 

Try it out, I think most here are over reacting without trying it.

 

Actually, It DOES keep the image review in the EVF if you keep the shutter half-pressed, a technique which can be absolutely required for fast action sequences where reliance on AF goes with the territory. It doesn't go back to live view until you fully release the shutter, which is a detriment in the aforementioned action sequences. All last week I have tried the workaround of using the back button (joystick) to AF and in single shot there is no difference. In continuous low I I have noticed some relief from auto review - BUT, that requires me to take twice as many shots, and inevitably the second shot is a blink or No Good for other reasons -- I've been doing this a long time, I know when to push the shutter! I also end up with at least  twice as many shots as I need. As a full-time professional shooter, using both of my bodies all week, now I'm stuck with hours more editing to get rid of the NG shots. Perhaps others here aren't experiencing this as a problem because they don't shoot action at this sustained pace (daily), or are anticipating it being a problem and are "overreacting". But they aren't, it's a problem. If I didn't have two bodies running simultaneously I could suspect you might be right, but with both cameras showing Auto Review when keeping the shutter button and back AF button half-depressed, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that half-pressed is not affected, it most certainly is. *take me back to 3.1* !!

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I'm glad to be reading that it is a feature and not a bug! The key here is that now you have to release the shutter button COMPLETELY to rid the EVF of the previous shot's preview, you cannot keep the shutter button held halfway to hold your AF (or exposure) and I think it is actually "that bad" in real world shooting. The time it takes to release the shutter button fully to get the live view of the scene back, even though it's a fraction of a second, that fraction is still long enough to cause the photographer to miss a surprise game-winning move from an athlete, an impromptu million-dollar expression from a portrait subject, a once-in-a-lifetime wedding moment, I could go on...but I won't :-) I just hope this "refinement" becomes optional. 

You must be using a different camera to me. Try as I might, releasing to the half pressed psition on the SL releases the preview.

 

I'm going to irritate a lot of people here by grumbling about the meaning of words. This behaviour is not auto-review, it's just review, and it's not mandatory - you choose to review by holding your finger down. OK, some people may prefer it otherwise, but.......

 

Later tonight I'll sit down with my CL, SL and M240 to see if I can see any freeze at all (none at all on the SL if you lift your finger) and, if so, if there's a difference between cameras.

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I'm glad to be reading that it is a feature and not a bug! The key here is that now you have to release the shutter button COMPLETELY to rid the EVF of the previous shot's preview, you cannot keep the shutter button held halfway to hold your AF (or exposure) and I think it is actually "that bad" in real world shooting. The time it takes to release the shutter button fully to get the live view of the scene back, even though it's a fraction of a second, that fraction is still long enough to cause the photographer to miss a surprise game-winning move from an athlete, an impromptu million-dollar expression from a portrait subject, a once-in-a-lifetime wedding moment, I could go on...but I won't :-) I just hope this "refinement" becomes optional. 

 

 

Thanks, capturing the moment is particularly important for me. The SL doesn't quite cut it at the moment for me but I know how you feel.

 

I just finished a series of group shots and an couple of events over the last 5 days so it isn't a 3.0 problem when I updated to 3.2. I didn't notice it

 

With your warning, I'm going in forearmed for a photo + video event that's a little tricky. Feels ok sitting down comfortably and trying it just now. Yes, optional is good. Until it grows into the future firmware, I will need to deal with it 

 

I assume your shutter button is set to initiate AF?

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Thanks. Yes, it occurs. Not always.

 

Tested it by shooting about 40 shots at random over a short 15 - 20 seconds.  That's not a terrifically high volume of shots.

 

It's similar to what I experienced with earlier version of 3.0 but with the SF64 flash. I think it will worsen the response when I plug in the SF64.

 

My guess is some cameras are affected by this. This is going to be irritating to deal with.

 

Do I have to shoot at 1 fps with a 11 fps camera? 

Edited by lx1713

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Actually, It DOES keep the image review in the EVF if you keep the shutter half-pressed, a technique which can be absolutely required for fast action sequences where reliance on AF goes with the territory. It doesn't go back to live view until you fully release the shutter, which is a detriment in the aforementioned action sequences. All last week I have tried the workaround of using the back button (joystick) to AF and in single shot there is no difference. In continuous low I I have noticed some relief from auto review - BUT, that requires me to take twice as many shots, and inevitably the second shot is a blink or No Good for other reasons -- I've been doing this a long time, I know when to push the shutter! I also end up with at least twice as many shots as I need. As a full-time professional shooter, using both of my bodies all week, now I'm stuck with hours more editing to get rid of the NG shots. Perhaps others here aren't experiencing this as a problem because they don't shoot action at this sustained pace (daily), or are anticipating it being a problem and are "overreacting". But they aren't, it's a problem. If I didn't have two bodies running simultaneously I could suspect you might be right, but with both cameras showing Auto Review when keeping the shutter button and back AF button half-depressed, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that half-pressed is not affected, it most certainly is. *take me back to 3.1* !!

It doesn’t keep the preview with a half press. I don’t know why you would be experiencing this unless your camera has an issue or you have some setting creating this behavior.

 

I just tried again with my normal setup (single shot, MF with joystick AF activation of AFs) and also various other settings with the AF triggered by the shutter.

 

In all settings holding a half pressed shutter did NOT keep the image in the EVF and did return to live EVF.

 

Holding the fully pressed shutter keeps the last image taken.

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