Problem with SL firmware update 3.2 - automatic Auto Review, not able to deactivate.

[LocalHero1953]

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The SL, CL and M240 all behave slightly differently, probably due to respective processor speeds rather than any intentional difference in functionality.

 

M240: autoreview set to "Rel. button pressed", which means no autoreview*, and LV off. Pressing the button gives you no review unless you hold the button for a period well under a second, but not requiring you to immediately release it. You need to fully release the button to remove the review image - releasing to the half press doesn't remove the image. If you enable Advanced Metering or Classic/LV, and show LV on the rear screen, the display goes black (again a bit under a second) after you take a shot, and returns either to LV or a review image, depending on whether you hold the button down or not. I suspect this more relaxed period of grace to remove your finger from the button is simply because the processor couldn't show LV or a review image quickly anyway.

 

CL: after shooting there is always a blackout. This is the same behaviour as the T and TL2 before it, where we complained about how slow it was to revert to LV. The CL is faster than the TL2, but there is still a blackout (it was the improvement in this respect which encouraged me to switch from TL2 to CL). The blackout gives you plenty of time to remove your finger from the button. Holding it down gives you a review image, which is released by reverting to the half press. So the CL certainly doesn't help you take action photos where you need continuous monitoring of movement or expressions - but this is nothing to do with the press-to-review functionality.

 

SL: this is clearly a victim of its own success in giving near continuous LV through shooting, effectively with no blackout. So if your finger is at all sluggish on the button, you will get a review image, which is released by returning to the half press. Frankly I don't remember how v3.1 and before worked, but given that press-to-review has been in my shooting muscle memory since getting the M240 several years ago, I would be surprised if the functionality has changed from v3.1 to v3.2 - but I'm prepared to be told I'm wrong by those who still have v3.1.

 

It's a long time since I held an M10 or tested it with the Viso, but I recall it had a blackout similar to the CL (or worse), so I would expect it to be similarly easy to release the button in a leisurely manner without triggering a review image.

 

Only the SL among all these cameras offers the opportunity to take a rapid sequence of single shots with continuous LV, so any sluggish fingers reveal the review image momentarily. It must be hard for Leica engineers to read this thread and realise they're getting beaten up because of the exceptional performance of the EVF!

 

 

* On the M240 you can set Autoreview to OFF entirely, which gives you no review even if you hold the button down. I guess this is the option that Gordon would like. This option is not available on the CL either.

Edited May 20, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[FlashGordonPhotography]

 

Later tonight I'll sit down with my CL, SL and M240 to see if I can see any freeze at all (none at all on the SL if you lift your finger) and, if so, if there's a difference between cameras.

 

Thanks Paul. That'll help a lot as I also have those cameras so I can reference any differences to how the SL might behave.

 

I might head to the Leica store later this week and see if they have 3.2 on the store body.

 

I just have a feeling that for 70% of people it'll make little difference. But for the 30% of us it'll be an enormous PITA. I know people think I'm over the top on this one but if it *does* show up in my normal shooting I would almost certainly leave the SL and Leica altogether. It's that serious to me. I can't/wont work with a camera that has no flow. A camera that stops the viewing experience in any way. I'd rather go back to DSLRs or put up with Sony menus. And it's not like I can just never upgrade. Future feature sets and the SL2 will almost certainly have this stupidity as well.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

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[thighslapper]

Paul ..... on both my SL and Cl there is a blackout after taking a shot which is marginally longer on the CL but so fleeting that I had never noticed it until this thread drew may attention to it ...... 

 

I would go so far as to suggest that any photographers reaction time would be such that the interruption on the EVF LV would be insignificant in usage ...... 

 

As for all the hoo-hah about this I find the logic rather warped ....... Surely if you are in single shot mode you have to take your finger off the shutter to take another photo ..... so if the situation is critical with fast moving action you have to release the shutter quickly anyway ..... and what's more if you are taking low light shots at low shutter speeds you cannot do this in a hurry or avoid movement blur so you are hardly likely to be taking photos of 'fast moving action' in the first place.

 

Get real guys, you are boxing yourselves into very odd hypothetical scenarios before you have even tried to see if it is a real world issue of significance. 

 

OK, so have it as a menu choice with all the other auto review options ...... but it will be in 3.3 which I doubt you will see for 6+ months .... and more likely zero now till the SL2. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

 

 

Get real guys, you are boxing yourselves into very odd hypothetical scenarios before you have even tried to see if it is a real world issue of significance. 

 

OK, so have it as a menu choice with all the other auto review options ...... but it will be in 3.3 which I doubt you will see for 6+ months .... and more likely zero now till the SL2. 

 

I have it on my CL and M. On the CL it bothers me. So if it's the same on the SL.......

 

How do you propose we do single shot panning with this behaviour? It's been hold the shutter down through the pan and watch to see where the subject is at the end for decades. With 3.1 panning worked like a DSLR. Now we have to change that behaviour?

[Guest VVJ]

Surely if you are in single shot mode you have to take your finger off the shutter to take another photo ..... so if the situation is critical with fast moving action you have to release the shutter quickly anyway ..... 

 

What about Continuous High Speed though?

[LD_50]

In continuous high speed the camera acts as it did before 3.2. It keeps taking photos so doesn’t sit on a single displayed frame the way it does in single shot when you hold the shutter fully down.

[Andrew Gough]

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Well it's a great idea as far as I am concerned ..... now I can switch 'auto review' to off permanently 

 

Why would you want to keep your finger pressed on the shutter button anyway, except in Continuous Drive Mode .... ? 

 

 

I have 3.2 installed and I can turn off auto review. There is a momentary blackout, but is super short, almost like an SLR mirror.

[lx1713]

 

Only the SL among all these cameras offers the opportunity to take a rapid sequence of single shots with continuous LV, so any sluggish fingers reveal the review image momentarily. It must be hard for Leica engineers to read this thread and realise they're getting beaten up because of the exceptional performance of the EVF!

 

 

I think you are right about sluggish fingers.

 

 

As for all the hoo-hah about this I find the logic rather warped ....... Surely if you are in single shot mode you have to take your finger off the shutter to take another photo ..... so if the situation is critical with fast moving action you have to release the shutter quickly anyway ..... and what's more if you are taking low light shots at low shutter speeds you cannot do this in a hurry or avoid movement blur so you are hardly likely to be taking photos of 'fast moving action' in the first place.

 

Get real guys, you are boxing yourselves into very odd hypothetical scenarios before you have even tried to see if it is a real world issue of significance. 

 

 

 

I retested my SL.  if I concentrate hard on my triggering and releasing with 20+ images in each series. I did each series 3 or 4 times.

 

With a single SD card, The preview does pop up but rarely. So it's not too distracting. Cards are 95mb/s cards, the slowest cards that I use on the SL.

With 2 cards. It does it more often. But similar to single SD card, it isn't too bad.

 

The thing is, I was concentrating on releasing my fingers precisely compared with my earlier test. As Paul said, sluggish fingers. I will need to work to overcome this tendency of mine. But it's real world enough under certain conditions, being aware of this is a real help. Oh, one thing though, I didn't hit my buffer limits in my testing.

 

So I think it's not a problem with the SL but rather I felt I've released the trigger stage but I actually haven't. In the heat of shooting ( some jobs are just frantic, you know), it's very easy to occur but knowing this behaviour allows me to pace my shots correctly. Overall, 3.2 feels a bit more responsive than 3.0 ( I somehow forgot to update to 3.1)

Edited May 21, 2018 by lx1713

[lx1713]

I have 3.2 installed and I can turn off auto review. There is a momentary blackout, but is super short, almost like an SLR mirror.

 

There's a difference between a Canon 5D and the 1D's blackout time. The 1D is shorter. With the 1D's shorter blackout time, I can see the effect of flash on reflective backgrounds and correct for it.

Not with the SL at the moment but I hope they will soon with the SL2. Faster refresh rates is always good.

Edited May 21, 2018 by lx1713

[lx1713]

I just noticed that toggling thru function button (next to the joy stick) gives me a label on the LCD panel at the back. "Auto" for switching EVF and LCD, Blank screen (for EVF only) & " LCD". Coming from 3.0  - it's a nice touch that I needed. I don't know if it's in 3.1. Apologies if it was. Then it would be old news.

Edited May 21, 2018 by lx1713

[m_k_s]

1. In a single pan you keep your finger pressed down (well at least I do) through and after the pan. When the exposure is finished you want to see the subject live to get an idea if you panned properly as it'll be in about the same spot as before the exposure started. This "feature" makes that impossible.

 

2. I shoot in situations where I mash the shutter. I have done so for 25 years. And I could do so with the SL. So now I need to retrain my behaviour on the SAME camera. I've always done the older version (from the film days where you could delay the motor drive by holding the shutter) and it's there at a cellular level.

 

3. I love most of what mirrorless cameras allow. The one thing I HATE is auto image review. I breaks the flow in fast shooting situations. It's the first thing I turn off in the menus. I only what to see what I'm doing when I'm shooting. Not what I've done. If I do I know where the button for playback is. To me that microsecond will completely break the flow I want. Depending where the camera is (like I'm holding it over my head on a dance floor) I might not easily be able to lift the finger fast enough to not see the review. In that micro second I lose my subject and not I have to swing the camera around until I find them. No thanks.

 

4. It's not the new "feature". It's that Leica have a couple of really really bad habits when it comes to firmware. The first is that they enforce things that should be user configurable (LENR, exposure preview with TTL flash in manual mode) and the second is that they change the behaviour of the camera from firmware to firmware without giving notice and without giving an option to keep the old way. They did it with the exposure preview on half press function from 2.x to 3.x (and not only did they NOT give you the option on the SL they did on the M!!). Here we have another arbitrary decision by Leica that makes the SL operate in a slightly different way and you're stuck with it.

 

5. Leica makes changes like this, that no one really wanted and no one asked for when there are still real problems in the firmware and PAGES of useful and interesting ideas available that would actually enhance the SL user experience. Someone did this deliberately. And someone coded the ECO mode stuff. And they did that instead of sorting out issues that are real and implementing stuff that dozens and dozens of people asked for. Does anyone really think that more people want an ECO mode and mandatory image review than the removal of mandatory LENR? ECO mode or focus bracketing? Mandatory image review or adjustable brightness in the EVF? No one likes the current eco mode except the little dudes in the white coats at Leica. I'd rather they FIX stuff before adding more stuff we don't need. This is the same.

 

6. And lastly, I can't help myself. I have a whole bunch of money tied up in Leica gear. I'm invested and I like the products. I'm not a Leica hater. I like the SL. I like the lenses. I still think it's the best overall mirrorless system for what I do. But at the same time I'm not ever going to say "it's not that bad..." like I'm just going to sit and watch Leica make poor decisions. Sure, lots of people will like this. But a lot won't. When you make a change that is going to be seen Every. Single. Shot. and half your user base questions that change then it should be optional. Making it mandatory is a dumb decision. Changing the behaviour of the camera without a universal request to do so is a dumb decision. This isn't the first time I'm going to have to change the way I work, because of a mandatory change by Leica. It annoys.

 

The Leica SL may be great and the lenses spectacular but I really think Leica wants me to shoot with a Sony......

 

Gordon

 

p.s. And I have tried it. It's on the CL. I didn't know it had flowed over to the SL. It's taken away from my enjoyment of that camera and I have hardly used it (the CL) since the new firmware went live.

 

So many excellent points here. #3 & #6 particularly strike a chord. Hoping Leica is listening hard here to some real world heavy users. We are the ones shooting professionally and dropping a lot of money into a system that is/can be truly spectacular, except for EXACTLY what you said...I have had to change the way I have always shot because of a mandatory change that could only benefit exactly no one. I've tested all the other mirrorless systems in the field and on the job, including the latest releases of both, and the SL system stands tall and blows them all away hands down every time in MOST areas. BUT, the latest firmware upgrade is causing the loss of key shots and that is unacceptable. 

[LD_50]

So many excellent points here. #3 & #6 particularly strike a chord. Hoping Leica is listening hard here to some real world heavy users. We are the ones shooting professionally and dropping a lot of money into a system that is/can be truly spectacular, except for EXACTLY what you said...I have had to change the way I have always shot because of a mandatory change that could only benefit exactly no one. I've tested all the other mirrorless systems in the field and on the job, including the latest releases of both, and the SL system stands tall and blows them all away hands down every time in MOST areas. BUT, the latest firmware upgrade is causing the loss of key shots and that is unacceptable.

Did you ever confirm that half pressing the shutter does not cause an image review? You claimed before it does so on your camera but never responded after myself and others pointed out it does not on our cameras.

[LocalHero1953]

So many excellent points here. #3 & #6 particularly strike a chord. Hoping Leica is listening hard here to some real world heavy users. We are the ones shooting professionally and dropping a lot of money into a system that is/can be truly spectacular, except for EXACTLY what you said...I have had to change the way I have always shot because of a mandatory change that could only benefit exactly no one. I've tested all the other mirrorless systems in the field and on the job, including the latest releases of both, and the SL system stands tall and blows them all away hands down every time in MOST areas. BUT, the latest firmware upgrade is causing the loss of key shots and that is unacceptable. 

Plenty of real world heavy users (and big spenders) among us amateurs as well! I hope for your sake that this is made optional, but I will keep using it because it doesn't interfere with my shooting speed, and it benefits me when I choose to use it.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Plenty of real world heavy users (and big spenders) among us amateurs as well! I hope for your sake that this is made optional, but I will keep using it because it doesn't interfere with my shooting speed, and it benefits me when I choose to use it.

+1  I have no problem with having it optional, and I like to use it on occasion.

[lx1713]

+1 to making it optional.

 

Feedback on today's shoot. Shot video and images back to back, 8 hour job. The feature wasn't a hindrance but a genuine time saver for myself under those conditions. I was consciously using it particularly for flash photography and it allowed me to instantly see if eyes are opened and any reflection issues that might be problematic. In my opinion, it eliminates one of the Canon 1D's short black out time advantage over a mirrorless. A surprising one up on my 5D.

 

The image preview was shorter than expected under pressure of shooting. I'm still taken by surprise even as I use it but it should be fine after a couple of months. Need to time my priorities a little differently now.

 

The pace is not frantic enough that the feature becomes a bug hence I still think it should be optional but I will want it on most times because I like it.

 

Btw a quick test with AFc seems better than 3.0.

Edited May 22, 2018 by lx1713

[m_k_s]

Did you ever confirm that half pressing the shutter does not cause an image review? You claimed before it does so on your camera but never responded after myself and others pointed out it does not on our cameras.

 

Half-pressing the shutter does not cause an image preview to appear. The image preview appears AFTER you fully depress the shutter button and take a shot, and doesn't disappear until you release the shutter button completely. It shows this preview after every shot. This is happening on both of my SL bodies that I updated to firmware 3.2. Am in talks with Leica tech now, this may be a bug on my cameras, don't know yet -- it's acting as if Auto Review is turned on, and it is most certainly Off. I don't use Auto Review, never have, so I didn't know the details of the feature, apparently it came about or the "permanent" auto review function was added in firmware update 3.1.  But as I said I've never had it turned on and it didn't show up on it own unbidden until I updated to 3.2. I'll post here when the tech gets to the bottom of it and we resolve the issue.

[douglas fry]

I noticed this and was annoyed by it initially, now I let the spring in the trigger button push my finger back up to the 'halfway point' as it were, then I get zero review, its only if I keep the release button pushed down to I see a review. But even in 'fast' sequences I dont keep the button held down as in that position I cant take another shot.

 

I only shoot in single shot mode btw.

 

It should be possible however in the next FW to switch this function off, I can see that it might change fundamentally how someone normally shoots, so a change of this nature should not be imposed on photographers

[lx1713]

Just an update on this matter. I find myself depending on this feature. It's an absolutely sublime addition to my workflow.

 

But there's a but to it, despite heavy and constant use, when I am under pressure I'm unable to control my trigger finger reflexes sufficiently to bypass the image preview step perfectly. Those are usually moments I don't want to miss at all.  

 

It's only in the 0.5% of the time I get irritated by it but it almost ruined my day a couple of times. I would like a hardware toggle (like the Nikon cameras D5, D850, D750 switch at the shutter button) at the shutter button where I can quickly switch it on and off. Preferably spring loaded rather than a fixed setting because it's rare that I need it. A short clockwise rotation to switch off image preview and maybe add a short anti-clockwise rotation to center the focusing point. Another point of irritation for me.

Edited August 18, 2018 by lx1713

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I upgraded one of my SL's to get functionality for the new flash controller. I still hate this function. Despise it.

 

I certainly understand that others love it and that's great but I won't be buying another Leica unless this function and LENR become optional.

 

Such a shame I have all that lovely glass sitting unused....

 

Gordon

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[IkarusJohn]

I’ve just realised that my digital Leicas have out of date software (I haven’t been taking many pictures as the anti-rejection drugs I’m on have given me the shakes - bad enough I can’t hold a camera still enough to frame and focus, let alone take a crisp image except at max shutter speeds).

 

Anyway, I went onto the Software download site and found that you can still download the previous versions of software, if you need them. I’ve been in the habit of storing them in a separate file on my computer - not sure if the cameras will let you go back. Could be another useful firmware feature.

 

I see that Gordon mentioned exposure preview. What has happened to this? I like this feature as it removes any reliance on the meter and exposure options. I noticed recently, not sure if it was the TL2 or the SL, that odd things happen now when you half press the shutter - the EVF seems to go into exposure preview (briefly) then reverts to what I guess is “normal”. What’s that about?

 

PS - I’ve just tried the shutter release review on the SL. On my camera, it seems to be the same as the TL2 - the EVF returns to normal when I release my finger back to the half way position. I don’t mind it, but I can see why many would want the option to turn it off.

Edited August 19, 2018 by IkarusJohn