So, who's buying the 16-35mm?

[mmradman]

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Mladen, if you read my blog and my messages here you can see that I am anything BUT a religious Leica zealot. I always say what I mean and what I believe in. I never told anyone what I think is good for anyone - please point me to where you think I did that. I said that "whether we like it or not, this is just a different philosophy behind the choice of features to be included or not in a product" rather than a "problem to be solved". Believe me, making LENR switchable is a request that has been covered to Leica already. Whether they decide to implement it or not, is not up to me: if it were, we had it already, even if I wouldn't use it personally

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

Dear Vieri, keep the good work and when have opportunity please use your privileged position convey to Leica that’s users would appreciate choice to disable LNER, I don’t think it is much to ask and it would raise esteem of the company as being receptive to Customer needs and wishes.

[helged]

Dear Vieri, keep the good work and when have opportunity please use your privileged position convey to Leica that’s users would appreciate choice to disable LNER, I don’t think it is much to ask and it would raise esteem of the company as being receptive to Customer needs and wishes.

 

 

+1.

[Jeff S]

Words are I important, Paul. Nothing is ever "just terminology"

 

 

Then you can appreciate my questioning your words “I wouldn’t mind” versus your earlier words “I wish” in regards to MP.

 

Clearly Gordon is in the “I wish” (or “I need”) category regarding LENR, and not “I wouldn’t mind”.

 

Jeff

[LocalHero1953]

Words are I important, Paul. Nothing is ever "just terminology"

 

About minority / majority on forum, I would think exactly the opposite - generally, people are vocal in forum only when they don't like something, and just keep silent otherwise.

 

Anyway, once more it is not my call to decide what to implement or not. I wouldn't mind having the feature switchable off - but, just for fun, imagine what would happen if you could turn it off and you would then get files with noise and artefacts: these same people who now want LENR switchable off, will be the first in line here to vocally complain that their files are noisy, bad or whatever. You can't have it both ways, and I think Leica is not going to take that risk, at least until they are sure that they can have clean files up to 30 minutes even without LENR - and when that will be the case, they will probably just take LENR away altogether. At least, this is my understanding of the way Leica operates, judging from past history in their camera's development. So, if I am right, I think we'll not see "LENR on / off" in a future FW update - perhaps in a future body with a different sensor. But then again, I might be very wrong - it wouldn't be the first time

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri 

Leica's philosophy is not normally about second guessing users' photographic practices and stopping them screwing up. If that were so they wouldn't allow us manual control of the camera. Their approach is normally to give us the tools and let us decide how to use them. There was no LENR with film photography. I don't want Leica to nanny me.

[tom0511]

Jeff, first of all, I am happy to see that you read me with so much attention, thank you. 

 

I still stand by what I said. A Leica SL with 40+ Mp resolution would seriously challenge medium format: I think it would be easily as good as MF up to 60-80 Mp, but of course it's all speculation at this point As far as my statement above, after two years using the SL anywhere in the world and under any conditions, processing thousands of files, creating large prints with it - in short, having used it professionally for all my Fine Art Landscape work for two years, making myself and my customers happy with it, I believe that the Leica SL's 24 Mp thanks to its amazing glass are (about) enough for my work. That said, however, having more resolution would allow me to spend less time in pot-production to make 24 Mp print as large as 150 x 100 cm, and allow me to produce even larger prints, which I certainly wouldn't mind.

 

Again, as things stand, MF offer is not for me, and as mentioned above I will post an article either today or tomorrow about my reasoning for that. 

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

 

I find the difference of MF vs FF is more in the colors, tonality and sharpnes roll off than resolution. Therefore I am not sure that a SL with more MP could rival medium format.

[IkarusJohn]

... Other than that, I found that I can easily plan your shots around LENR, and when that is not feasible then always having a second body with me works for me 80-90% of the times - two bodies, but one tripod only, switching cameras. With a little practice, I became pretty fast at it ...

Hi Vieri,

 

Please excuse my ignorance, but with LENR, don’t you have to expose the same scene during the noise reduction exposure?

 

Cheers

John

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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Hi Vieri,

 

Please excuse my ignorance, but with LENR, don’t you have to expose the same scene during the noise reduction exposure?

 

Cheers

John

 

No. It's a dark frame. Sensor is active but the shutter is closed. It's the TIME that's the same as the original exposure. So a 30 minute exposure takes an hour with LENR.

 

Gordon

[Vieri]

Hi Vieri,

 

Please excuse my ignorance, but with LENR, don’t you have to expose the same scene during the noise reduction exposure?

 

Cheers

John

 

 

Hi John,

 

no problem No, during LENR the camera takes a dark frame, shutter is closed, so as long as you don't turn it off you can move it wherever you like. Best regards,

 

Vieri

[Vieri]

I find the difference of MF vs FF is more in the colors, tonality and sharpnes roll off than resolution. Therefore I am not sure that a SL with more MP could rival medium format.

 

Hello Tom,

 

in principle, you are right. To me, though, colour and tonality are not fundamental reasons to go MF, they can be taken care of in post with pretty similar if not equal results - roll off would be. However, with the last SL Summicrons Leica showed that they could change sharpness roll off dramatically; so, I am not sure what the future will bring. Perhaps, lenses such as the new Summicrons on a high-res sensor will get there - we'll have to wait and see

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

[FlashGordonPhotography]

So basically it all boils down to LENR

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

 

Yes and no. That's the primary issue (almost the only issue) I have with the SL. But if Leica removed LENR I'd probably be carrying my S007 up a hill, but that one is even more crippled with maximum 2 minute exposure times. But the files......

 

Originally I bought a Sony A7R2 because of the LENR on the SL (plus the A7R2 has the fab smooth reflections app) and the flash wasn't working at all (firmware 1.x) on the SL. But it was shooting 12 bit compressed raws and when pushed I could see some artifacts in print. So I started looking around and got a good deal on a 645Z. But it's not mirrorless Then the X1D was released.... Turns out there's a reason for the slow startup people bitch about. It loads 500MB of calibration data for the sensor on startup. That means no LENR for exposures up to an hour. The files are all 14 bit. Colour is spectacular. Lenses are super sharp and almost completely aberration free. It's an epic landscape camera. Makes going back to the SL a big ask, regardless of the lenses.

 

I do have an A7R3, A7R2 and the original. But I don't use those either, for landscapes. I am in the incredibly fortunate position of being able to afford to own different systems depending on what they are used for. The X1D is best for landscapes and studio work. The SL for weddings and general shooting and the Sonys for architecture, longer glass and reproduction work with Canon's TS lenses. For work, my SL's are my most used cameras, by far. And my favourite. I'd like to replace some other gear with the SL's.

 

I have tried to shoot all Leica in the past but there are too many compromises, for me. But I would, with a few simple changes. The question of LENR would mean I'd lose the Sony's for my architecture work, especially if there was a higher resolution body available. I'd shoot the S over the X1D if there was a mirrorless version with long exposures and no LENR.

 

And the weird thing is, the SL is so close to a brilliant landscape camera.... It's beautifully made. Weather sealed. Works in temperature extremes. Has zooms with consistent filter sizes. Spectacular EVF. Settable exposure times to 30 minutes. 24-300 in two lenses (the 16-35 should be a 12-24). And then they stuff it up with LENR. And the M10 could also be a great landscape system but that has both LENR and limited exposure times. Sheeesh!!

 

And for the record I do have 2 SL bodies. There are work arounds, for sure. That's not the point. The point is there are better tools for the job and I have access to them.

 

This August I'm travelling to Namibia with a Leica Ambassador. I'm taking no Leicas. Remove LENR from all the cameras and I'll replace the Sony A7R3/A9 with a CL/SL combo. Lose the 2 minute (and LENR) restriction and I'll take the S instead of the X1D. It's that simple.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Hello Tom,

 

in principle, you are right. To me, though, colour and tonality are not fundamental reasons to go MF, they can be taken care of in post with pretty similar if not equal results - roll off would be. However, with the last SL Summicrons Leica showed that they could change sharpness roll off dramatically; so, I am not sure what the future will bring. Perhaps, lenses such as the new Summicrons on a high-res sensor will get there - we'll have to wait and see

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

 

Sorry but no.

 

A person, I shall not name, who is closer to Leica than most, moved from the S to SL, like you. He adapted and shot and loved the glass and the files. Said there was no reason to go back to the S. We were together with another shooter with a Phase system and our banging on about MF made him pick up his S when he got home and he was reminded that there's no substitution for a larger sensor. The bigger sensor counts. What ever you can do in post to improve the feel of a 24x36mm file can also be done to a 33x44 (or 30x45mm) sensor as well. It's a subtle difference. But it's a real one.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

[Vieri]

Yes and no. That's the primary issue (almost the only issue) I have with the SL. But if Leica removed LENR I'd probably be carrying my S007 up a hill, but that one is even more crippled with maximum 2 minute exposure times. But the files......

 

Originally I bought a Sony A7R2 because of the LENR on the SL (plus the A7R2 has the fab smooth reflections app) and the flash wasn't working at all (firmware 1.x) on the SL. But it was shooting 12 bit compressed raws and when pushed I could see some artifacts in print. So I started looking around and got a good deal on a 645Z. But it's not mirrorless Then the X1D was released.... Turns out there's a reason for the slow startup people bitch about. It loads 500MB of calibration data for the sensor on startup. That means no LENR for exposures up to an hour. The files are all 14 bit. Colour is spectacular. Lenses are super sharp and almost completely aberration free. It's an epic landscape camera. Makes going back to the SL a big ask, regardless of the lenses.

 

I do have an A7R3, A7R2 and the original. But I don't use those either, for landscapes. I am in the incredibly fortunate position of being able to afford to own different systems depending on what they are used for. The X1D is best for landscapes and studio work. The SL for weddings and general shooting and the Sonys for architecture, longer glass and reproduction work with Canon's TS lenses. For work, my SL's are my most used cameras, by far. And my favourite. I'd like to replace some other gear with the SL's.

 

I have tried to shoot all Leica in the past but there are too many compromises, for me. But I would, with a few simple changes. The question of LENR would mean I'd lose the Sony's for my architecture work, especially if there was a higher resolution body available. I'd shoot the S over the X1D if there was a mirrorless version with long exposures and no LENR.

 

And the weird thing is, the SL is so close to a brilliant landscape camera.... It's beautifully made. Weather sealed. Works in temperature extremes. Has zooms with consistent filter sizes. Spectacular EVF. Settable exposure times to 30 minutes. 24-300 in two lenses (the 16-35 should be a 12-24). And then they stuff it up with LENR. And the M10 could also be a great landscape system but that has both LENR and limited exposure times. Sheeesh!!

 

And for the record I do have 2 SL bodies. There are work arounds, for sure. That's not the point. The point is there are better tools for the job and I have access to them.

 

This August I'm travelling to Namibia with a Leica Ambassador. I'm taking no Leicas. Remove LENR from all the cameras and I'll replace the Sony A7R3/A9 with a CL/SL combo. Lose the 2 minute (and LENR) restriction and I'll take the S instead of the X1D. It's that simple.

 

Gordon

 

 

Horses for course, Gordon. The X1D is simply too many compromises for me. Your only gripe, LENR, for me is a non issue: hence, I am very happy with my SL for landscape. In fact, for me, it is simply the best system for landscape, and I make my living with landscape. So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Vieri, from your signature you appear to be Leica ambassador. Diplomacy works both ways, rather than telling us what you think is good for us please convey to your masters that plebs would appreciate LNER being made user option rather than mandated. We had similar argument a while back about need to have Auto ISO enabled and few professional bloggers close to Leica were arguing that Auto ISO is not in Leica spirit. Leica is not religion but camera brand.

 

I would also like to take occcassional long exposure shot but frankly built in LNER is putting me off, I am definerly not doubling on my hardware to achieve that.

 

I can assure you Leica know, already. More than one *Ambassador* has talked to Leica about the LENR and short exposure times on the M and S systems. Leica are still doing things their own way.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Horses for course, Gordon. The X1D is simply too many compromises for me. Your only gripe, LENR, for me is a non issue: hence, I am very happy with my SL for landscape. In fact, for me, it is simply the best system for landscape, and I make my living with landscape. So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

 

I think we agree on the important bits. We both choose the equipment that suits us as individuals. And we both use Leica for our work. Just different fields. I don't need long exposures for my work so I shoot the SL, primarily. And when Leica bring out a high res version I will replace my Sony's. I love the system. Most of the time.

 

Gordon

[thighslapper]

 Turns out there's a reason for the slow startup people bitch about. It loads 500MB of calibration data for the sensor on startup. That means no LENR for exposures up to an hour. The files are all 14 bit. Colour is spectacular. Lenses are super sharp and almost completely aberration free. It's an epic landscape camera. Makes going back to the SL a big ask, regardless of the lenses.

 

 

 

Gordon

 

I did assume (but didn't know) this was how Hasselblad overcame the long exposure issue ..... presumably a library of dark frame data specific to that camera and sensor ...... possibly some theoretical issues with extremes of ambient temperatures and sensor ageing ..... but if HB feel it doesn't compromise image quality then I can't see how Leica can justify being any more picky than them .

 

The data doesn't need to be loaded every time the camera switches on ...... just an option instead of Leicas method of LENR that can be a menu choice ...... a few seconds delay loading then would be no problem ...... as if you are contemplating a long exposure you are clearly not in a belting hurry ...... and my SL usually spends all day switched on when I use it, so once it's loaded it's there and available. LENR is not being disabled ...... just a different method being used. Leica appear to have their head in the sand over this ....... and fail to resolve this for the next version of the SL at their peril. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by thighslapper

[lx1713]

From the arguments, I agree that LENR should be solved in a more elegant way. Like what the X1D does.

 

I wonder if the sensor is experiencing the film version of reciprocity failure when working beyond the film's designed range of sensitivity and LENR is the modern day version of post processing to normative exposure. I think that post processing on a computer would have been my preferred cure rather than on site.

 

Would a tethered capture remove the need for LENR? I should say I haven't done a long exposure in a really long time.

Edited April 18, 2018 by lx1713

[lx1713]

"Would a tethered capture remove the need for LENR?"  Answer to my own question: No. The camera has to deal with the file before handling it to the tethered computer.

Edited April 18, 2018 by lx1713

[meerec]

FlashGordonPhotography, on 18 Apr 2018 - 07:05, said:

Turns out there's a reason for the slow startup people bitch about. It loads 500MB of calibration data for the sensor on startup. That means no LENR for exposures up to an hour.

 

—————————

Hi Gordon, I believe many things you’ve said but don’t quite understand or agree with the above statement about slow startup of the X1D and the reason for this being enablement of no-LENR. Please elaborate as it makes no sense, to me.

 

Here is why.

 

I shoot with the Hasselblad H5D-50C and: 1/ it has no LENR, 2/ it has no time limits for long exposure times (none!!), 3/ it starts up instantaneously.

Edited April 18, 2018 by meerec

[Vieri]

"Would a tethered capture remove the need for LENR?"  Answer to my own question: No. The camera has to deal with the file before handling it to the tethered computer.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that when doing landscape in the middle of nowhere during thunderstorms such as Gordon or in the location I work most of the time tethering wouldn't be the most practical solution

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lx1713]

Not to mention the fact that when doing landscape in the middle of nowhere during thunderstorms such as Gordon or in the location I work most of the time tethering wouldn't be the most practical solution

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

 

 

I went straight from a mostly 4x5 film business with the occasional medium format and 35mm work to a DSLR life because tethering was not an attractive workflow. But I've seen some "struggles" with nice outcomes. 

 

Yes. I agree with you. Not very practical. Thunderstorms have me huddling in the comfort of my home. When I travel, I generally photograph my friends, social conditions or team mates. Rarely the landscape. That I savour with food and drink because I'm simply inadequate to the task.