Closer than 0.7m focusing

[michaelwj]

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Paul made this comment in a thread earlier today comparing the CV 1.8/21 and the Leica 1.4/21;

 

Has (the CV - my addition) the added bonus of closer .5m focussing.

And it got me thinking, is it really a bonus? I've used a few lenses that focus closer than the 0.7m RF limit and have mixed thoughts.

 

On one hand, 0.4m/0.5m on a wide angle it is nice to be able to really force perspective.

 

On the other hand, close in I will usually focus to the MFD and then rock my body back or forth to find focus. Having a lens that will decouple from the RF at close focus makes this not so easy, and has turned me off the recent CV 35mm lenses for instance.

 

On the whole, I would say I prefer a stop at 0.7m. If I'm going closer I'll use a different camera.

 

What are your thoughts?

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[Paul J]

If you have a need for close focusing then it's a bonus.

[Ko.Fe.]

One meter is enough for classic Leica and classic rangefinder photography, IMO.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Michael,

 

Are you interested in closer focusing because you like the widened perspective of something not that far away? Or because you want a larger image of a certain subject?

If your interest is in a larger image of a smaller subject then perhaps a 90mm lens or 135mm lens with you standing somewhat further back would be of interest to you.

 

A 90mm lens focused at 1 meter & a 135mm lens focused at 1.5 meters both give you an image to object ratio of 1/9 which is a much larger image of a subject than a wide angle lens focused on the same subject from 1/2 that distance.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[TomB_tx]

I agree closer focus with an ultrawide is a plus, as you can get a perspective enlarging the subject while separating the background. My VC 21 f4 Skopar also focuses to .5 meter, which I've used a bit, but with my M9 don't have live view to frame accurately that close.

So for ultrawide I've switched to an A7 with an adapted small SLR 20mm (Pentax-M f4).

If I finally replace the M9 with an M10 I'll go back to the VC 21

[lct]

Opportunity makes the thief. Now that i can shoot easily at 0.2 to 0.5m i use the feature more and more. Here at 0.5m (A7s mod, ZM 50/1.5, f/1.5 ): http://tinyurl.com/y75z32eu

[luigi bertolotti]

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On the whole, I would say I prefer a stop at 0.7m. If I'm going closer I'll use a different camera.

 

What are your thoughts?

That's the point... today you have many choices about a different / second camera... and lct post , here above, is a proof of : and on Leica side, you have the EVF... I think I wouldn't have bought, 10 months ago, an Elmarit 21 with 0,4 focus if I hadn't my EVF for my M240...

Leica is in a particular position, as of today... RF is still a sort of flagship. so that they don't like/don't dare to make M lenses with focus beyond the RF limit... other manufacturers can do.. they don't have a "legacy flagship" to respect, and this indeed can be a "collateral appeal" for their products... Leica, if will succeed in surviving and investing the right way in new products in the next future,  probably will be able to break this "legacy flagship" in the next 2-3 years, I think.

[Guest )-(]

My 21mm Super Angulon focuses to 0.4m, i like this feature a lot. I can feel the bump as it decouples and it’s easy to estimate distance so close. I’m at f8 for this sort of shot anyway. This is on film but i doubt I’d bother with an EVF to focus even if i had one.

 

For wide angle lenses it’s a big bonus in my book, i don’t keep some other camera just for this occasional use.

 

The distance scales on the lens are all that’s needed at 21mm, with 35mm lenses and beyond, I’m happy with the forced constraint of 70cm.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I use my CV's close in when needed. The M EVF has made this pretty easy. Fortunately the CV lenses I have that allow this are the ones I need an auxiliary finder anyway, so I don't see the issue with using them on a digital M (except the M8/9 of course).

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

That's the point... today you have many choices about a different / second camera... and lct post , here above, is a proof of : and on Leica side, you have the EVF... I think I wouldn't have bought, 10 months ago, an Elmarit 21 with 0,4 focus if I hadn't my EVF for my M240...

Leica is in a particular position, as of today... RF is still a sort of flagship. so that they don't like/don't dare to make M lenses with focus beyond the RF limit... other manufacturers can do.. they don't have a "legacy flagship" to respect, and this indeed can be a "collateral appeal" for their products... Leica, if will succeed in surviving and investing the right way in new products in the next future,  probably will be able to break this "legacy flagship" in the next 2-3 years, I think.

 

The WATE focuses natively to 0.5 meters. Always has, even before the arrival of the mirrorless cameras. So I don't think they're stuck with a "legacy issue". It's a design choice. I imagine it's complex enough to make a small sharp RF lens as it is without having to make it ultra close focusing. Leica isn't concerned about how their lenses focus on a Sony. Voigtlander on the other hand.......

 

Gordon

[lct]

The WATE focuses natively to 0.5 meters. Always has, even before the arrival of the mirrorless cameras. So I don't think they're stuck with a "legacy issue". It's a design choice. I imagine it's complex enough to make a small sharp RF lens as it is without having to make it ultra close focusing. Leica isn't concerned about how their lenses focus on a Sony. Voigtlander on the other hand.......

 

Sure but design choices can take into account that modern rangefinders have EVFs now. And many Sony users do like Leica lenses as well. I would have loved to take this pic with my SEM 21/3.4 asph for instance but i could not: http://tinyurl.com/y8h9dwlb (A7s mod, CV 21/4, 0.2m).

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Sure but design choices can take into account that modern rangefinders have EVFs now. And many Sony users do like Leica lenses as well. I would have loved to take this pic with my SEM 21/3.4 asph for instance but i could not: http://tinyurl.com/y8h9dwlb (A7s mod, CV 21/4, 0.2m).

 

You could have used the CV helicoid adaptor instead of a fixed one...

 

Gordon

[lct]

You could have used the CV helicoid adaptor instead of a fixed one...

 

I have used it. 

[michaelwj]

Leica of course used to make 21mm lenses that focused to 0.4m, the 3.4/21 SA and the 2.8/21 Elmarit. But partway through the Elmarit production the MFD changed to 0.7m. I wonder if this was due to some philosophical reason or user feedback? It definitely wasn't due to EVF or adapter considerations...

I have owned the 3.4/21 SA and loved the 0.4m MFD, but you never got there by accident. At 0.4m the focus tab was almost at the top of the lens! The ZM and CV lenses though that focus closer without a focus tab I find very annoying at distances close to 0.7m though, especially on lenses that aren't so wide (like the 35s). There's no feedback on the lens or in the VF and the annoyance outweighs the benefit for me.

Of course with EVF equiped bodies all this goes out the window.

Having a button or notch at 0.7m that needed to be activated to go closer (a la 2/50 DR) would be ideal in my case. I could use it when I wanted to, but wouldn't get there by accident.

[lct]

The CV 21/4 has a focus tab but its focus throw is shorter than that of the SA 21/3.4. Here both lenses at 0.5m.

 

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[farnz]

... Leica is in a particular position, as of today... RF is still a sort of flagship. so that they don't like/don't dare to make M lenses with focus beyond the RF limit... other manufacturers can do.. they don't have a "legacy flagship" to respect, and this indeed can be a "collateral appeal" for their products... Leica, if will succeed in surviving and investing the right way in new products in the next future,  probably will be able to break this "legacy flagship" in the next 2-3 years, I think.

Luigi,

 

Leica has a history of not 'following the crowd' and doing the unconventional regardless of what the popular press/social media feels.  Consider the Monochrom, the M-D, the Visoflex, selling the original autofocus system to Minolta, the S1, the dual-range 50 Summicron, the 0.95 Noctilux, the M-A, the M9Ti, the T, the medium format S line, upgrading the rangefinder put into the M10, the Leicavit, etc so, personally, I doubt that breaking the legacy flagship is or will be a boardroom consideration for the foreseeable future.  For as long as there is a healthy market for rangefinder cameras I think Leica will continue to produce them.  (And I'm happy about that.  )

 

Pete

[lct]

[...] For as long as there is a healthy market for rangefinder cameras I think Leica will continue to produce them.  (And I'm happy about that.  )

 

So am i but a 0.4m or 0.5m MFD lens can work perfectly with a rangefinder. BTW lenses like SA 21/3.4, SA 21/4 or CV 21/4 are smaller than SEM 21/3.4 asph so i'm not sure if size is a problem here. I'm no engineer though .

Edited October 29, 2017 by lct

[adan]

The 21mm Elmarit-M non-ASPH only provided close-focus (< 0.7 m) in the first year of 17 years of production. Very few made that way - Luigi was quite lucky to find one!

 

At the time 1) virtually everything M was made in Canada (Wetzlar having attempted to kill the rangefinder system in 1976 as irrelevant and a money-loser in an "SLR" world), so 2) I expect the removal of the close-focus capability was just to further simplify construction and reduce costs as part of Midland's plan to show the M could be made "economically."

 

Having briefly used the 21 SA f/3.4, I rather liked the closer focus for certain purposes, and rather miss it on the Elmarits.

 

However, since the close range is "guess-distance" anyway, it can be replicated if desired with a screw-in close-up lens. Not easy with the E60-diameter original Elmarit (I think only B+W makes a CU accessory lens in that diameter), but quite easy with the E55/E46 21s or 24s. I tried that with a 24 Elmarit-ASPH and it worked quite well (or at least as well as with the SAs, or presumably the C/V) - but I went back to an E60 21 for other reasons, so never pursued it farther.

 

One just does some test shots with a yardstick poking straight out from the camera, to find the "equivalent" focus position with the filter in place - e.g. with a 2-diopter filter mounted, "infinity" on the lens scale = (perhaps) 15" and 0.7m on the lens scale = (perhaps) 11", and so on. With instant digital feedback, it is even easier to test (and easier yet with LV or EVF).

 

One well-made (not too thick) CU filter mounted did not vignette.

 

BTW - the close-focus capability of the 21 SAs, as with the Hasselblad SWC, was touted as ideal for photos of architectural models.

 

https://i1.wp.com/leicaphilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/18.jpg

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/db/b2/45dbb22fab7911f69041304ef3310e74.jpg

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Hallo,

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