Do Hasselblad mulitple price drops threaten the S system

[xiaubauu2009]

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I disagree. I have an S2, S006 and six lenses. I have not bought an S007 and would not likely do so unless it was sub 10,000 USD, because it does not offer a huge advance over the S006 in my workflow, and in some ways is a step back (less long exposure, CMOS colors and lower per pixel sharpness etc). They made the 006 too well, and (in my opinion) changed things that did not need to be improved at the expense of things that should have been improved. I do not claim to speak for anyone else, I primarily work in art photography, and image quality and color at base ISO are more important than speed or CMOS features. Live view is great, and I would love to have it, but 37mp is simply too low for a medium format camera in 2018...it has been at 37mp for 10 years, which is the lowest resolution flagship camera in ANY professional system...Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax...they all outresolve the S with a good lens.  In large prints I am only getting 120dpi from a 1mx1.5m print, without any cropping. The prints look very good, but they could look even better. The lenses are capable of far more. I would have much preferred if they had made the camera 50-60mp and extended the long exposure time and base ISO quality, rather than make it shoot more frames per second. People don't shoot medium format for speed, they do it for image quality. I think Leica missed the ball by trying to make a prestige fashion camera (look at their marketing and the S magazine) instead of focusing on what they do best, which is image quality and ergonomics. The apparently dire state of the S system means that at least some people agree with me. In 2008 the S2 was a genuine revolution. In 2018 the S007 body is out of date in most aspects that a person buying a extremely expensive MF digital camera might want. Don't get me wrong, it IS a great camera, but it does not compare well to the flagship offerings of its competitors, especially at the price point they have chosen. Again, this is just for me. I am a contrarian on this, and I think most S users do not share my views. 

 

 

Totally agree. I totally agree with you. It was great 10 years ago. They can't treat S like they treat M.

[ZHNL]

I disagree. I have an S2, S006 and six lenses. I have not bought an S007 and would not likely do so unless it was sub 10,000 USD, because it does not offer a huge advance over the S006 in my workflow, and in some ways is a step back (less long exposure, CMOS colors and lower per pixel sharpness etc). They made the 006 too well, and (in my opinion) changed things that did not need to be improved at the expense of things that should have been improved. I do not claim to speak for anyone else, I primarily work in art photography, and image quality and color at base ISO are more important than speed or CMOS features. Live view is great, and I would love to have it, but 37mp is simply too low for a medium format camera in 2018...it has been at 37mp for 10 years, which is the lowest resolution flagship camera in ANY professional system...Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax...they all outresolve the S with a good lens.  In large prints I am only getting 120dpi from a 1mx1.5m print, without any cropping. The prints look very good, but they could look even better. The lenses are capable of far more. I would have much preferred if they had made the camera 50-60mp and extended the long exposure time and base ISO quality, rather than make it shoot more frames per second. People don't shoot medium format for speed, they do it for image quality. I think Leica missed the ball by trying to make a prestige fashion camera (look at their marketing and the S magazine) instead of focusing on what they do best, which is image quality and ergonomics. The apparently dire state of the S system means that at least some people agree with me. In 2008 the S2 was a genuine revolution. In 2018 the S007 body is out of date in most aspects that a person buying a extremely expensive MF digital camera might want. Don't get me wrong, it IS a great camera, but it does not compare well to the flagship offerings of its competitors, especially at the price point they have chosen. Again, this is just for me. I am a contrarian on this, and I think most S users do not share my views. 

I agree what you said. It is not they make S006 too well so 007 didn't sell I feel, just simply I was under impressed with S007 during the time I used it. (about 4 month). S007 adding a few bell and whistle features such as Video (half baked), digitized DOF scale (not reliable at all) and some very useful features such as LV and high DR at high ISO, at the same time, they took away real shutter dial, and pleasing base ISO color which is one of few reasons keep me with S. And most importantly, no real upgrade about pixel density and AF capability. 

 

They really need figure out the selling point of this system. For me are: lens quality and rendering, Color, big bright OVF finder and premium build and simple operation and potential high IQ with bigger sensor,   S007 offer nothing over S006 in these key areas but added a few features that I can easily get from my 35mm system such as faster AF, more DR and video, but none of them can even compete well with mid level full frame offers. 

 

I watched recent LL video clip about S, I'd say I am totally unimpressed from that interview. S product Manager seems unconfident, no passion and ambitions, I can't imagine with that kind of mindset, next S will be exciting. At the same time, increasing price of S007 are simply arrogant. It totally makes no sense. 

 

S system actually is still my favorite camera system to use and I always enjoy its output the best (giving right condition). However, I am sure most people are quite unhappy with the status of this system. Leica really need figure out how they want this system involve. Pay almost all its attention to fashion just seems fool given the system potential.

 

So far, I feel both S and SL systems are quite vulnerable based on what they have done and what they are doing. This is depressing for a Leica fans like me. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by ZHNL

[tom0511]

I dont feel the S007 to be a step backwards in regards of low iso color and IQ compared to the S006. For me the advantage for handhold photography has been the higher ISO capability, but also I dont mind the higher dynamic range at lower ISO, the less AF hunting and the even faster response of the camera.

I agree that the price of S007 today compared to other MF cameras is (much) too high and Leica should have given a plan what to expect in the S system. If Leica has delays in developping the new S008 they should at least give us an idea what to expect.

[Stuart Richardson]

I felt very similarly around 2007 when I was photographing with an R9 and the DMR...the feeling was quite similar. Of course, Leica killed the system. They gave us the S2, which was great. I hope that whatever they give us with the S008, it takes advantage of the current state of the art technology and allows use to use the S lenses natively. I also hope it has an OVF. But I guess we will see...or maybe it will just slowly disappear, that seems to be how Leica likes to discontinue things. After all, we haven't seen a new lens, camera or accessory since 2014 with the 100mm Summicron and 007, have we? 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Stuart Richardson

[Guest]

I had both the S006 and also and still have the S007..........for me the upgrade from S006 to S007 was great, like others have mentions the ability to hand hold and the higher ISO made it 100% worth it for me.

 

Unfortunately for Leica I have now jumped ship and using 100 megapixel instead of the 37 megapixel................I still have the S007 but is been sitting in the dry box ever since I got my new camera and in the dry box I think it will stay...........I am taking it with me to Tanzania as a back up body while I am on Safari, but hopefully I won't need it.

 

I thought about selling my S007 but the second had value of Leica S gear is at rock bottom, so I am thinking that one of my kids might like to get into photography one day and the S007 would be a nice starting camera for them

 

Neil 

[xiaubauu2009]

I had both the S006 and also and still have the S007..........for me the upgrade from S006 to S007 was great, like others have mentions the ability to hand hold and the higher ISO made it 100% worth it for me.

 

Unfortunately for Leica I have now jumped ship and using 100 megapixel instead of the 37 megapixel................I still have the S007 but is been sitting in the dry box ever since I got my new camera and in the dry box I think it will stay...........I am taking it with me to Tanzania as a back up body while I am on Safari, but hopefully I won't need it.

 

I thought about selling my S007 but the second had value of Leica S gear is at rock bottom, so I am thinking that one of my kids might like to get into photography one day and the S007 would be a nice starting camera for them

 

Neil 

 

 

That's a sweet starting camera... I remember mine was a ricoh point and shoot... FF-90

[randman]

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In regard to original question, I think that the Hassy price drop does threaten Leica. At least from my perspective as a guy entering the MF market.

 

My burning question is ... does the X1d have an image quality as good (IQ and color) as the S007? I ask because I am constantly amazed at the quality of the S files. Since I am a newcomer I’m not sure if it is glass or IQ, I just know that I want to recreate those looks.

 

Although I am not willing to pack the larger H models yet, the higher ISO capability is a temptation.

[tom0511]

After now having used he x1d for a couple of weeks I must say I have not sold my S007 and lenses yet.

If I should make a list about advantages / disadvantages between the systems there are 2 things going to the x1d system: 

-smaller size and weight (main argument IMO)

-lower price

But then the Leica S offers much faster startup, much shorter black out time, faster lenses, better bokeh (at least when not fully open).

I don't regret to get the x1d, because for and travel, outdoors etc. the smaller size is a real benefit. 

But I also often miss the speed of the S and the fine quality of the S lenses. At the moment I will keep both systems.

Specially the long startup and the long black out (it leads that I don't have a good feeling if I got the shot/moment or not) of the x1d are things I could not get used to so far.

[Guest]

After now having used he x1d for a couple of weeks I must say I have not sold my S007 and lenses yet.

If I should make a list about advantages / disadvantages between the systems there are 2 things going to the x1d system:

-smaller size and weight (main argument IMO)

-lower price

But then the Leica S offers much faster startup, much shorter black out time, faster lenses, better bokeh (at least when not fully open).

I don't regret to get the x1d, because for and travel, outdoors etc. the smaller size is a real benefit.

But I also often miss the speed of the S and the fine quality of the S lenses. At the moment I will keep both systems.

Specially the long startup and the long black out (it leads that I don't have a good feeling if I got the shot/moment or not) of the x1d are things I could not get used to so far.

what about IQ. You didn’t mention that?? Do you prefer the xid rendering over the S rendering or vise versa

Neil

[tom0511]

what about IQ. You didn’t mention that?? Do you prefer the xid rendering over the S rendering or vise versa

Neil

I didn't run direct comparisons. I would maybe give the slight edge in color to the x1d+focus over s007 in LR.

In regards of sharpness rolloff and bokeh my feeling is the Leica lenses render more gentle/subtile/smooth. Overall I think I slightly prefer the S rendering.

But again, just my impression without directly comparing the same subject.

[fsprow]

I had an S2 and S006 but replaced them with Hasselblad H's (I'm 78 and have no problem carrying my H6D-100c for several miles) and now also an X1D ( in addition to M's and Nikon SLR's).

 

I think the X1D and S files are quite similar, but the Hasselblad colors are superior especially with Phocus processing.  

 

However, I think the S lenses are terrific and if I didn't suffer through countless returns of lenses and cameras for repair I would on balance prefer it I believe.  Will carefully look over an S008 if one is offered at a "reasonable" price.

[ZHNL]

In regard to original question, I think that the Hassy price drop does threaten Leica. At least from my perspective as a guy entering the MF market.

 

My burning question is ... does the X1d have an image quality as good (IQ and color) as the S007? I ask because I am constantly amazed at the quality of the S files. Since I am a newcomer I’m not sure if it is glass or IQ, I just know that I want to recreate those looks.

 

Although I am not willing to pack the larger H models yet, the higher ISO capability is a temptation.

 

It depend, without any experience with X1D, but having access for all latest Sony and nikon D850 etc, I can safely assume X1D will be a better system for landscape. (If you can find SWA lens for it.) 

 

There is no mandatory noise reduction or limitation of exposure time, there is no shutter shock with EFC and full electronic shutter for X1D and there is better Dynamic range.  

 

For portrait and everyday photography, I will give slightly edge to S for its better responsiveness and beautiful lens rendering and true 16 bit file. 

 

And TBH, I see brighter future with X system than S. This situation is pretty sad and I feel Leica itself should take full responsibility for mishandling the issue and wrong system upgrade path. (slow customer service, not transparent in communication about focus motor and sensor corrosion issue, no real update on lens for many years, keep low resolution after multiple upgrade cycle.... ) 

[Jeff S]

I can safely assume X1D will be a better system for landscape. (If you can find SWA lens for it.)

 

A 21 is due (profile already available), which is 16-17 equivalent FOV.

 

Jeff

[Paul J]

The 50MP CMOS Sony sensor is well and truly at the top of the pile and better than anything except the 100MP Sony sensor.

 

The S lenses are very special though which does account for a lot with me. They just have the look that I really like.

 

It's early days for the X1D and the lenses look extremely good so far. I'm very interested to see how the fast 80mm turns out, rumoured as a 1.4, and the zoom as well.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I like the S lenses better. And they're faster. But if I could sell the S gear I have for a decent price I would. But since prices have tanked I am keeping it as a backup to my X1D as I can share some of the HC lenses I own.

 

One of two things will happen. Leica will bring out a mirrorless S with no LENR and I will buy it. Or they'll make another DSLR with LENR and I'll have a little bonfire with my remaining S gear.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

A 21 is due (profile already available), which is 16-17 equivalent FOV.

 

Jeff

 

And the HC24 is truely excellent. At a pinch you can use the 24 and 17mm Canon TSE's and get a 13mm equiv....

 

Gordon

[xiaubauu2009]

Adapting the Canon's tiltshift ultrawides to either X1D or GFX is quite nice, but Canon's glass is not very consistent, they usually need to be adjusted quite often for off center sharpness... The 24mm is not as sharp as the S24mm but it has quite a lot larger image circle and can do some pretty nifty perspective correction.

 

Maybe this ability to use tilt shift lens will have some influence on people doing interior/architect/landscape stitching in deciding whether to go for Hassy/Fuji options or Leica S, beside the price issue (1/2~2/3 price of the S007).

[Guest]

I nearly bought a HCD28mm yesterday but the seller backed out of my offer ........ glad really as my HC50mm II is really wide on my 100c sensor. If I need anything wider I can use HC300 and stitch [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

 

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[Guest]

Adapting the Canon's tiltshift ultrawides to either X1D or GFX is quite nice, but Canon's glass is not very consistent, they usually need to be adjusted quite often for off center sharpness... The 24mm is not as sharp as the S24mm but it has quite a lot larger image circle and can do some pretty nifty perspective correction.

 

Maybe this ability to use tilt shift lens will have some influence on people doing interior/architect/landscape stitching in deciding whether to go for Hassy/Fuji options or Leica S, beside the price issue (1/2~2/3 price of the S007).

phocus lens correction software is amazing very easy to correct verticals if you screw up when shooting.

 

 

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[John McMaster]

 ........ glad really as my HC50mm II is really wide on my 100c sensor.

 

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Rather than MP, it is the sensor size that makes the difference in angle of view with a given lens.  So your sensor is roughly 40mm x 54mm, I never found a 50mm that wide on my film Hasselblads (57mm square).....

 

john