Leica Ends Free Sensor Replacement for M9/Monochrom Bodies

[Go Figure]

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After buying two M8 with UVIR + "green sh#t" phenomenon

my Leica connection in August 2009 told me : "there is no funny stuff or green sh#t going on with this new sensor - it's clean !"

"green sh#t" refers to a complex reflexion glare problem caused by an external light source - not very ideal when you are an available light photographer ...

We were warned but still trusting, because we loved our Ms and love made us blind.

Leica must have known that they were going out on a limb with a laminated sensor.

By then they knew that the laminated Kodak sensors in the SLR/n and SLR/c had an

issue, in fact  so bad that Kodak quit the business not even 2 years

into making the camera - they simply rolled over and died .

I still have 6 bodies sitting here in a box ... the 14n which came prior still works

without a flaw because it has a plain sensor.

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[jaapv]

I have only had my M9 for a few days and got slapped in the face with this news about the change in policy about the sensor swap.

Fortunately the sensor seems to show initial signs of corrosion with the halos.

 

However, now i am completely terrified about what the future holds. Especially since i sacrificed so much to own my first digital M, and second hand! 

Are the new sensors they supply now corrosion proof? Im worried of what might happen to the camera in the future.

I am seriously considering and somewhat hopefull that when i send my M9 to NJ, that they will offer the upgrade to the M240 since it is a sensor that does not have that problem. Does anyone know if they offer a swap or is the upgrade only some credit for the M9 with a payment for the new camera?

 

On one hand i am somewhat excited to have the opportunity to own a new Leica camera if an upgrade is offered and/or within my limited budget.

On the other hand, it was my dream to own a modern classic M like my beautiful M3. Theres just something that sounds so much sweeter about owning an M9 than an M240. Even if the 240 has so many new modern features. And my M9 is cosmetically and mechanically in mint condition. Which makes it even sadder to have this fear looming over the camera.

 

Not sure if anyone has gone for the upgrade? What the experience was?

Can i trust in the future with my M9 and its CCD sensor? Because it will most likely be 20 years when my girls are in college that i might be able to afford to buy my own new Leica camera from a dealer. My M3 and M9 were meant to be my cameras for the foreseeable long future.

Yes, the new sensors have been developed with a new, corrosion-proof coating.

[Denys]

I have only had my M9 for a few days and got slapped in the face with this news about the change in policy about the sensor swap.

Fortunately the sensor seems to show initial signs of corrosion with the halos.

 

However, now i am completely terrified about what the future holds. Especially since i sacrificed so much to own my first digital M, and second hand! 

Are the new sensors they supply now corrosion proof? Im worried of what might happen to the camera in the future.

 

Just to reassure you about the sensor you will have if the current one is replaced. Leica has PROMISED us all that the second generation sensor WILL NOT CORRODE FOREVER. Sleep well.

[IkarusJohn]

Thanks, Jaap, for taking the time to report Leica's position.

 

In my view, this is very poor PR spin.

 

There was no "miscommunication" in the 2014 announcement Leica was forced to make (largely by pressure from here, I would surmise). It was clear, unequivocal and Leica continued to sell the CCD based M-E after that announcement.

 

They now seem to be saying a digital M is good for only 5 years before we start paying for the repair of inherent defects (I struggle to see "goodwill" when the M9 was sold as a "camera for life" - Leica's words, not mine).

 

I can't tell you how much of a relief it isn't that the €1,000 charge is for labour rather than the sensor cost.

 

This is nothing more than spin, and poor spin at that. The worst thing about it is it bears no resemblance to the actual service I get from Leica, and the fantastic products they make.

 

Talk about shooting themselves in the foot!

[luigi bertolotti]

For me, the bottomline is: If in 2014 Leica promised that they would cover the cost for   both   the new sensor and the technicians' fees, then this time they've at least reneged on that latter half of the original promise.

 

And for the owners of the affected cameras the differentiation between contributing towards (part of) the cost of the new sensor and towards the technicians' fee certainly does not make much real difference.

 

That said, I am grateful to Jaapv for taking the time to talk to Leica and obtaining this explanation. Although Leica's clarification on this minor technicality does still sound like a rather shoddy effort on their part to wiggle out of the PR disaster they are currently in. 

 

While the financial reason of this unpopular decision is perhaps not in itself inexcusable, especially considering that Leica is a comparatively small manufacturer, I can't help but imagine that they'd probably have fared much better had they reached out to their customers via a crowdfunding campaign instead of gleaning money from loyal customers in such an (at best) opaque and (at its worst) underhanded manner. Or is Leica in such dire straits financially now?

... or inventing something better to have anyway cash-in and satisfaction from loyal customers, inviting them to "bet on future".... the principle of "loyalty vouchers"... communicating something like :

 

< for >5 years etc...>

 

- New sensor is free 

- We do offer an advisable  CLA/overhaul with warranty at X Euros

 

OR (at YOUR choice, my BELOVED customer)

 

- We ask Y Euros for labor costs (of sensor replacement ONLY... no CLA/control on camera)

- And you get a Voucher of Z Euros (=Y or very next to) for any buy of M/SL line cameras or lenses , valid for 2 ( or 3) years from the date of return of your camera, fully cashable on the net price offered by an official dealer (*)

 

Calibrate well X, Y, Z,  reasoning on your cost projections, margins on new items etc. .. you (Leica co.) have the data to elaborate on this... you know that your customers, if satisfied, DO like to buy something time to time... bet on this, and the financial impact will be LOW now, and "hidden and diluited" in the next 2-3 years of sales...

 

The more I think of it, the more I think they COULD invent something better than their crude communication... a not well-pondered decision. 

 

(*) a marginal issue to be managed someway... exchange rates and dealers' policy are impacted... again, think and you'll find a solution...

Edited May 17, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[Aguilera85]

No worries! If Leica will be still in business in ten years from now the LNiB M240 will costs 1K$. If Leica is not in business in ten years from now, M240 will cost twice less. 

 

 

Yes, the new sensors have been developed with a new, corrosion-proof coating.

 

Just to reassure you about the sensor you will have if the current one is replaced. Leica has PROMISED us all that the second generation sensor WILL NOT CORRODE FOREVER. Sleep well.

 

Thank you guys for the reassurance. I have been enjoying my M9 these past few days and would hate to only use it occasionally because of fear of further deterioration even after getting the sensor replaced. 

I will wait and see if Leica makes any offer regarding my M9. And if they don't, i will still be pleased with my first (and only, for a very long time lol) digital M.

[enboe]

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Guess it's time for another trip to the LA store. I have an M9-P, two Monochroms and an M-E I will ask to be checked and upgraded as a precautionary measure.

 

I wonder how big of a wave of returns they will generate by posting the deadline.

 

Eric

[jaapv]

Thank you guys for the reassurance. I have been enjoying my M9 these past few days and would hate to only use it occasionally because of fear of further deterioration even after getting the sensor replaced. 

I will wait and see if Leica makes any offer regarding my M9. And if they don't, i will still be pleased with my first (and only, for a very long time lol) digital M.

What further deterioration? These cameras are built to be used, not babied. A sensor does not wear by use.

[Joshua Lowe]

What happened to the concept of these cameras being enduring heirlooms that are handed down to children and grandchildren?  Isn't that part of the allure and one of the reasons for the premium price?  This is a defect in workmanship issue and Leica should stand by their product.  What a ridiculous decision.

[pico]

Thank you guys for the reassurance. I have been enjoying my M9 these past few days and would hate to only use it occasionally because of fear of further deterioration even after getting the sensor replaced.

 

Be assured that using it does not contribute to sensor corrosion. Use it and enjoy.

[pico]

What happened to the concept of these cameras being enduring heirlooms that are handed down to children and grandchildren?

 

Myth, at least in this part of history.

.

[pico]

Guess it's time for another trip to the LA store. I have an M9-P, two Monochroms and an M-E I will ask to be checked and upgraded as a precautionary measure.

 

I would be reluctant to send my M9s to Leica unless I KNEW there was significant corrosion.

[Go Figure]

Owning Leica has become an expensive gamble and what was made up with faith that wrongs would be put right is now shot. It's just one headache after another that I can no longer be bothered with.

I feel the same

and having to advise a company on how to treat us their unique "life term" clientele is absurd.

 

It brings back memories that I'd rather not want to relive. 

One was an exorbitantly expensive  film shredding-machine called SL2MOT 

... the other the ever broken back-kicking Winder M

which I used on my modified M2 and M3 with M4 take up spools

(said camera loaded with film sitting right next to me as I write this )

 

It was shear freedom to come to the US

and find people like Don who could really repair and maintain things

and not just present you with a

600 Deutsche Mark minimum bill charged undiscriminantly for anything that needed reapir

- such was Leitz late 80s policy:

"There is no repair on a Leica that is under 600DM."

I dealt with every camera maker or their repair services in multiple continents at one point in my life.

and learned how to ... smell a rat.

 

How do you think Nikon lost me and many others to Canon ...

  ... every time we boarded a plane

we would meet a colleague in the lounge or at the check or while trying to stash our 300s and 400s

above our seats in overbooked flights - and we talked ...

same happened while waiting for the clips at the labs.

 

At the end Nikon gave me free F4s and changed only the serials just because it was on my carnet ...

 

... one day it was just one blown shutter "good for 100000+ exposures" too many ...

jet lagged in some cafe somewhere I read an add by James Nachtwey it said: Now it is time for Canon.

I finished my cigarette, got in the car and a couple of hours later was back in the Hotel

with 2x1Ns and a bag full of lenses ... I never looked back.

[pico]

(on hardware failures)

 

... the other the ever broken back-kicking Winder M

which I used on my modified M2 and M3 with M4 take up spools

(said camera loaded with film sitting right next to me as I write this )

 

I suspect the modifications were the faults - not Leica.

.

Edited May 17, 2017 by pico

[Go Figure]

I suspect the modifications were the faults - not Leica.

.

the winder was from the M4-2 ... and unusable Canadian junk... once I had met Don, on his suggestion I had him modify the M2 and M3 ... later Tom reinvented the Leicavit

which is what I still use ... 27 years on ...  4 years ago I had Don repair them once more.

[IkarusJohn]

The timeline here is interesting:

• M9 released - 9/9/2009 (discontinued 2013)

• Monochrom released - May 2012 (discontinued April 2015 with the release of the M(246))

• M-E released - 2012 (discontinued late 2015)

• sensor corrosion issues identified - 2014 and Leica (eventually responds with free sensor replacement for 10 years following discontinuance of CCD sensor cameras)

• Leica replaces sensors with existing, defective CCD sensors until a new sensor was developed in 2016(?)

• Leica revises offer to 5 years after original purchase, and 1,00 Euro for others from August 2017

So, what we have is CCD based cameras being sold (new) by Leica till late 2015, and the original CCD sensor being used as replacements until some time in 2016.  At that time, Leica had an unqualified commitment to replace affected sensors at no cost until 10 years after the CCD based cameras were discontinued.  That means at least until 2025.  Unless I have some of my dates wrong, I'm pretty sure there can be no argument about this.

 

In 2017 (with 8 years left to run on their commitment), Leica changes the rules.  This means that a buyer with a 2 year old M-E Monochrom or camera is under some uncertainty.  Certainly, Leica will stand by its commitment given back in 2014 to replace the sensor at no cost, but will this endure for the entire 10 years those buyers will have relied upon when they purchased?  Or will Leica change the rules again ...

 

It seems to me that CCD based M camera owners have a number of choices (Jaap might like to share his consumer law expertise here - I wouldn't be so bold, but my understanding is that the consumer law in the place of purchase applies, and in any event Germany is quite good on consumer protection).  For original M9, M9P and Monochrom purchasers, before the sensor fault was discovered, their rights would seem to lie in the original purchase - assurances of "camera for life" and defective goods etc.  Most jurisdictions will have reasonably well developed laws on latent defect.

 

In this respect, while Leica's commitment of 2014 is expressed to be a "goodwill gesture", it was clearly more than that.  It was an offer of compensation to the world at large (owning CCD based M cameras) to settle any potential claims they might have.  I have very little doubt that for anyone having the energy, the 2014 commitment by Leica is enforceable against them, despite their latest attempt to re-write the rules.

 

For those who bought after the 2014 commitment, I think the position is stronger.  The commitment would be easily identified as a representation which was relied upon by those buyers, and would be enforceable, I would think, against Leica.

 

Then, for that small group (small?) who had their corroded sensors replaced with the same sensor (not the new sensor Leica assures us won't corrode), they are sitting on a time bomb, it seems to me.  Theoretically, the replacement sensor is irrelevant, as Leica hasn't really rectified the inherent defect.

 

Now, legal analysis will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, class actions will be available in the US and other jurisdictions will allow them and an energetic lawyer could easily go forum shopping to find the best place to sue.  Leica would then be faced with settling those claims as they arose, much like a game of whackamole.

 

But the point, as everyone here has made well, is the damage to the goodwill which has saved Leica in the past.  The M9 was the camera which made Leica profitable again, and the cynical ease with which Leica seems to want to walk away from a commitment made to its loyal customers is breathtaking.  Much like Jaap, I have passed on my concerns to Leica - no reply yet.  It would be a mistake, I think, to let this fester.

 

Cheers

John

[pop]

• ....
• sensor corrosion issues identified - 2014 and Leica (eventually responds with free sensor replacement for 10 years following discontinuance of CCD sensor cameras)

• ....

Thanks for the compilation. Where did you find the free sensor replacement for 10 years? I haven't been able to find such a promise.

The last M9 was produced in August 2012, BTW. Stefan Daniel said so in the interview at the Photokina 2012. This makes the timing of the new announcement interesting, I think.

[Go Figure]

What? M4-2? 

Portuguese junk came later

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Go Figure]

 

IkarusJohn

"... the cynical ease with which Leica seems to want to walk away from a commitment made to its loyal customers is breathtaking."

 

I remember after the M5 disaster Leitz quickly became cocky again - although it was the US army that had saved them and M4-2s were made in Canada now.

It was the very same cockiness which brought down the whole German camera industry in the first place ... service as we know it now

was completely unknown - the Leica repair staff looked like hospital doctors wearing white...

 

Now under Austrian rulership this does not come unexpected.

 

The likes of Piech and Porsche family should indicate what's coming ...

I am surprised they did not give the M10 a name but stuck to letters and numbers ...

Edited May 18, 2017 by Mark Ebert

[Ko.Fe.]

Portuguese junk came later

 

Like what junk? I'm having hard time to believe this statements are allowed on this forum.